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free health care

OutofDate1980 said:
If you have insurance, you need not do anything. You may want to talk with your current insurance provider, rather than get worked up about unfounded fears.
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They are not unfounded fears, they are facts. Under Obamacare there are medications defined as "specialty drugs," that the cost will skyrocket. Healthcare reform is not necessarily a bad thing, but Obamacare will destroy healthcare in this country.
 
OutofDate1980 said:
A 50% reduction in health insurance rates in New York is a start.

Affording Obamacare: New York's New Health Plan Rates | James R. Knickman

"This week's announcement of the costs of the health insurance plans that will be offered through New York State's Health Benefit Exchange brought good news: with the implementation of Obamacare, New Yorkers purchasing individual insurance policies will pay less than half of current rates. (A few months ago in this space, I wrote about the likelihood that Obamacare would actually decrease health care premiums in New York State, but even I didn't think prices would go down so dramatically!"
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cool story.... if only it were true

this is why we are still spending millions of dollars trying to convince everyone this scam is good for them........ because its all smoke and mirrors

50% reduction in costs sounds great....... but even the article you cite shows an INCREASE not a reduction in costs..... $475 on average sounds great when you claim the current costs average over $1000..... which is their claim.......... however thats just plain idiocy at its best and a flat out lie at its worst

the figures show the average cost for an individual plan in NY is $357 according to Kaiser (you know that foundation that all the libs love to cite because it carries the water for this boondoggle).... thats a 33% increase to switch to the new "cheaper" plans

I guess the lemmings are easily fooled.... which is how this thing got passed in the first place
 
chrlswltrs said:
They are not unfounded fears, they are facts. Under Obamacare there are medications defined as "specialty drugs," that the cost will skyrocket. Healthcare reform is not necessarily a bad thing, but Obamacare will destroy healthcare in this country.
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Specialty drugs have been around long before Healthcare reform. The prices have been skyrocketing just as long, mostly because of lack of competition, i.e. under patents.

I thinks there's ideology being expressed rather than rational discussion.
 
OutofDate1980 said:
Specialty drugs have been around long before Healthcare reform. The prices have been skyrocketing just as long, mostly because of lack of competition, i.e. under patents.

I thinks there's ideology being expressed rather than rational discussion.
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Except currently the medication my daughter takes is covered by insurance and we pay $20 a month. Under Obamacare insurance can not cover it anymore which means it will be well over $3000 a month once it goes into effect.
 
chrlswltrs said:
Except currently the medication my daughter takes is covered by insurance and we pay $20 a month. Under Obamacare insurance can not cover it anymore which means it will be well over $3000 a month once it goes into effect.
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What leads you to believe that your insurance will no longer cover the medication at the current rate once Patient Protection and the Affordable Care Act goes into effect ?
 
ElasticNinja said:
Heh, have you seen the statistics? I reckon the only likely thing that could make US healthcare worse at this stage is throwing even more money at it.
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The biggest problem with American's health is not the healthcare system, it is our own government actively and knowingly poisoning us with GMOs and Flouride in water just to name a couple ways.
 
chrlswltrs said:
The biggest problem with American's health is not the healthcare system, it is our own government actively and knowingly poisoning us with GMOs and Flouride in water just to name a couple ways.
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What?

Your point on fluoride is just crazy, I'm pretty sure fluoridation is much more common in Europe yet we spend half as much on health and less babies die etc.

As for GMO, we have been genetically modifying plants for millennia. Just now it's more scientific (and potentially dodgy).

The biggest problem with US health is lack of healthcare for many, leading them to put off problems. The doctor should not just be for an emergency.
 
ElasticNinja said:
What?

Your point on fluoride is just crazy, I'm pretty sure fluoridation is much more common in Europe yet we spend half as much on health and less babies die etc.

As for GMO, we have been genetically modifying plants for millennia. Just now it's more scientific (and potentially dodgy).

The biggest problem with US health is lack of healthcare for many, leading them to put off problems. The doctor should not just be for an emergency.
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Both wrong. The biggest problem are two fold. Number one, lack of personal responsability. Number two, the high cost of health care, which Obamacare does nothing meaningful, and in fact does more harm due to the tax on medical suppliers and cost of compliance.

If medical costs were lowered by more meaningful legislation, then we wouldn't have a problem. The issue is that Obamacare is one giant mess of a bill that nobody really understands, not even the legislators who voted for it.
 
rabidhunter said:
Both wrong. The biggest problem are two fold. Number one, lack of personal responsability.
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Every healthcare system has this. People smoke and drink themselves to death in Europe at a rate above America's.


rabidhunter said:
Number two, the high cost of health care, which Obamacare does nothing meaningful, and in fact does more harm due to the tax on medical suppliers and cost of compliance.
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I agree it does little to help, it's a sell out bill. But it's better than nothing, and should at least reduce cost increases and improve cover.
rabidhunter said:
If medical costs were lowered by more meaningful legislation, then we wouldn't have a problem. The issue is that Obamacare is one giant mess of a bill that nobody really understands, not even the legislators who voted for it.
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Indeed, more meaningful legislation would bring about universal healthcare.

If Spanish regions can all run excellent comprehensive health systems cheaply, I don't see why US states can't be made to introduce good private orientated universal systems primarily funded by the state.

You guys spend a ridiculous amount on health, imagine the care you could have.
 
Bob Maxey said:
I read most of the bill as well as a few detailed reports detailing what is in it. Part of my job at that time.
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Glad to hear it. Have a few questions about your previous post on the topic. I am working from the PDF you posted earlier in the thread. ( http://obamacare.net/wp-content/upl...Protection-and-Affordable-Care-Act-hr3590.pdf )

Bob Maxey said:
From the Affordable Health Care Bill (Obamacare)

- At age 76 when you need health care the most, you will no longer be eligible for cancer treatment (See page 272).
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Page 272 deals with religious and poverty-based exemptions. Neither the word "seventy" or "seventy-six" appears anywhere in the text. The number 76 appears quite frequently: on page numbers.

Bob Maxey said:
- Page 50 / Section 152: The bill will provide insurance to all non-U.S. residents, even if they are here illegally.
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Page fifty deals with insurer risk obligation and the establishment of a high risk pool. I can't find a section 152 in the bill, though by reference it seems to deal with the definition of 'Dependents.' What this actually is is a reference to HR3200, which did not pass. 'Obamacare' is adapted from HR3590.

Bob Maxey said:
- Page 58 & 59: The government will have real-time access to an individuals bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts. (Meaning they can take your money without informing you)
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Pages 58 and 59 deal with the establishment of web portals for purchasing coverage.

Electronic funds transfers are referred to several times (while the word Transfer is used 125 tims), most of which refer to a requirement that all eligible plans be required to accept EFT as a method of payment (among other forms.)

Bob Maxey said:
- Page 65 / Section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations. (Example, the Association pf Community Organizations for Reform Now
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sntaylor said:
I'm just curious as to what the issue appears to be with the thought of free health care, it is something that I am very proud that we have over here in the UK.

Now I know it's not strictly free as it's our taxes that pay for it, but personally I prefer this notion, the idea that if I'm sick be it a serious bug, injured playing sport or even walking the street and falling, I know that I can arrive at a hospital a&e and will be treated, with no worries of filling out insurance claim forms or if I can afford it or not.....this goes for anyone on this island if you arrive legally or not!

I realise that yet again things are different in the states, but I know that Obama has a policy that is trying to deliver more affordable health care and that this has its many critics, from a British point of view I don't understand where the problems lie, is it the way he is going about it, or is it the notion of giving away medical care free to those who may not have paid any taxes etc?

Don't get me wrong, our system has many issues, but the core principle of being treated stays the same! We also have private hospitals available and many people use these through company benefits etc, but the nhs is still available to all.
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There are some things to consider.

1. Population. UK= approx. 62.74 million US=approx. 313.9 million (for US thats not including illegal immigrants and people who skip Census)

2. United States debt vs. UK debt. US= approx.$16,700,000,000. UK= approx. $2,200,000,000 (in US dollars)

3. The incompetence of the American Government.

Seriously our debt is so high all of us who live in the US know that this is going to be carried on the backs of the middle class. So basically the working middle class will be taxed to kingdom come.. Oh and since 1981 our government has shut down 5 times. They can barely regulate their finances what makes them think they can regulate 300,000,000+ peoples health and healthcare?

No thanks, I'll go ahead and work my butt off for healthcare instead.
 
ss1992 said:
2. United States debt vs. UK debt. US= approx.$16,700,000,000. UK= approx. $2,200,000,000 (in US dollars)

3. The incompetence of the American Government.

Seriously our debt is so high all of us who live in the US know that this is going to be carried on the backs of the middle class. So basically the working middle class will be taxed to kingdom come.. Oh and since 1981 our government has shut down 5 times. They can barely regulate their finances what makes them think they can regulate 300,000,000+ peoples health and healthcare?

No thanks, I'll go ahead and work my butt off for healthcare instead.
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You do know our debt is well above the limit set by Congress, and well above 17 trillion right?

70 Straight Days: Treasury Says Debt Stuck at Exactly $16,699,396,000,000.00 | CNS News
70 Straight Days: Treasury Says Debt Stuck at Exactly $16,699,396,000,000.00 | CNS News
 
All I have to say at this point is our government can't even regulate themselves. I highly doubt they can regulate our healthcare.
 
ss1992 said:
All I have to say at this point is our government can't even regulate themselves. I highly doubt they can regulate our healthcare.
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Yep, can't stop crime, DUI or prevent forest fires, so let's give up and admit that government of the people is the problem as Reagan convinced so many of.
 
ss1992 said:
All I have to say at this point is our government can't even regulate themselves. I highly doubt they can regulate our healthcare.
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I think you'll find they already do .. kinda what government is there for and you should be glad of it: pushing to remove goverment regulation really would be turkeys voting for Christmas (though to non-Americans, the whole anti-Obamacare movement is pretty much that, anyway)
 
ss1992 said:
All I have to say at this point is our government can't even regulate themselves. I highly doubt they can regulate our healthcare.
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I think healthcare is the responsibility of state governments. I'm sure they could manage.

Also, I don't see why you make a big deal over the different debt figures for the UK and the US. The UK is 5 times smaller...
 
ElasticNinja said:
Also, I don't see why you make a big deal over the different debt figures for the UK and the US. The UK is 5 times smaller...
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Actually, according to Wikipedia, national debt per person is higher in the UK than the US.

Of course, these numbers are always a bit dodgy as there are different definitions of national debt.

Also, it's impossible to say how much of UK national debt can be attributed to health care: the figure includes things like war debts - as any fule kno, the US went into WWII poor and came out the richest country on earth and a good chunk of those riches were debts owed by the UK. The war debt was paid off in 2006, but having to make interest and re-payments on that debt would mean other debt couldn't be run down.
 
ElasticNinja said:
I think healthcare is the responsibility of state governments. I'm sure they could manage.

Also, I don't see why you make a big deal over the different debt figures for the UK and the US. The UK is 5 times smaller...
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I'm not really making a big deal, but you can't sit here and say that the fact we are over our debt limit isn't an issue. Just saying.
 
ss1992 said:
I'm not really making a big deal, but you can't sit here and say that the fact we are over our debt limit isn't an issue. Just saying.
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Well, the debt limit I don't really care about, but the sustainability of long term borrowing is indeed an issue. Reforming healthcare would certainly help.

Right now between them, US governments throw as much money into a broken system as a % of GDP as western European countries, yet because there is no real functional health system, private expenditure is also massive.

If reform was put in place to reduce private health expenditure through the implementation of a proper healthcare system (in my view, at the state level), personal disposable income would increase, and the money could be spent elsewhere.

Of course, the money thrown at healthcare in the US does have economic benefits, but that money could be targeted better, or used to pay down debt.
 
ElasticNinja said:
Of course, the money thrown at healthcare in the US does have economic benefits, but that money could be targeted better, or used to pay down debt.
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.. and there is your reason the GOP and friends are agin' it: lots of people are making bucket loads of money from the current, broken system - enough money to make it worth their while to fund the GOP and friends to fight ANY reform :D
 
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