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Illegal Immigration simply cannot be tolerated any longer.

First of all please do not cling so tightly to American history and the immigration bill/statues, since the USA is founded on the principles of immigration it is actually kind of hypocritical.

EVERY country was founded on immigration (or violent conquest). That doesn't mean you continually accept masses into your border unchecked forever.

We can talk all day long about laws, i bet there are laws in the US that you dont agree with. For example the drinking laws, which are completely ridiculous I think you will agree. A law is there as a set of rules, to distinguish right from wrong which is fine.
But those laws were set down by people who often we dont agree with and when we dont agree with them the whole propaganda engine begins and people who are of a weak mindset invariably fall for the crap fed to you. In the US you are more likely to get killed on the road than by a terrorist, yet the US spends billions invading other countries, wouldn't that money be better spent improving road safety?

What a horrible argument. Honeslty? There are laws you don't agree with, so anyone should be able to disregard whatever law they don't agree with? Really? This is the best argument you have?

The reality is, and you dont have to believe it. It is human nature to want to provide for your family, we were fortunate enough to be born into a country whereby this is not to difficult. Laws aside, you cant blame immigrants, illegal or otherwise from trying get a bite of that cherry when their only alternative is persecution, hunger and corruption..

It is human nature, and I am all for revamping and improving the legal immigration process.
 
Ummm... the same thing applies to EVERY other type of insurance. Doesn't seem to be too much for Insurance companies to handle. They seem to do pretty well.
If insurance companies have to comply to the local mandates, how does selling across state lines benefit the insurance companies?
Do a little research. Of ALL the health insurance contracts in this state, across ALL types. Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama has 83% of them.
Source?
If you have 83% of your current market, you absolutely can enter a market. Open one or two offices in the big cities and start bidding on contracts.

If you have no OTHER revenue to rely on, then you have to start turning a profit relatively immediately, which isn't likely with the markets sewn up like they are.
So... since all insurance companies are monopolies, they could all enter eachothers markets with ease, because they have a substantial revenue base to rely on. You see how this is contradictory?
Every few years, the Alabama State Employee Insurance contract is put up to bid. There are only two companies allowed to bid on that contract. We must either go with one or the other, because they are the only sizable companies doing business in Alabama.

If you open that up to more competition, then prices go down. It's a pretty simple concept.
Only two companies have a substantial enough network to be able to bid on it. Do you know why that is? The cost of establishing a network for specific cities and locations. That kind of network you can't buy, and if you were entering the market, you would have to establish. A serious losing proposition, especially if you then lost that bid. Do you understand that? Clearly you don't understand how insurance works, but I would figure after repeating myself a few times, you might get the cost involved with establishing a network.
Just like car insurance. Right? Which seems to work fine with companies selling insurance across state lines?
I must be confused. What car insurance mandates are there?
Do I not? Are you sure of that? Let me explain something. One company has an effective monopoly on EVERY market in Alabama.
Source? Also, if a non-profit has a a 94% MLR [that's 10% better than the 'for-profit' average], should you really be complaining about their market share?
Feds: Alabama BlueCross market share grows higher | Birmingham Business Journal
Whether or not I understand the interplay between different health insurance markets, corporations do.

They do well, navigating between different laws for selling every other type of insurance. What makes health insurance different?
The way health insurance works makes it different? The substantial networks and up-front cost required, as opposed to the other insurance industries. That's before you can bid on, and win, any contracts. And if you lack contracts, you can't get a good deal with the providers to begin with, because you can't promise them a revenue stream. Which is why insurance companies tend to buy networks in places where they aren't established, but the networks you can buy have less beneficial prices, and so forth.
You do realize that continually feeing in cash doesn't make it profitable. Right? You actually have to make money on your own to be profitable.
Yes, which is hard due to the high barrier to entry (networks).
Seems like with record profits, the profit margin could afford to be a little lower. Don't you think?
Selling a business line that is not insurance has nothing to do with insurance profits, does it? And to answer your question; no, I don't think a 3% profit margin is unreasonable.

The other question is breaking down the TPA businesses and other non-fully insured lives from the fully-insured business lines and looking at them. The non-group market, in many states, loses money or breaks even. The small group market tends to be slightly profitable, if at all. Those are the only two markets we're looking at.

Remember what you said -- if a line of business isn't profitable, you should drop it. Does that also include the non-group and small group markets? It looks like the insurance companies took your advice and dropped non-profitable lines of business. Now you complain about it. Interesting.
What does that have to do with selling insurance across state lines?

I'm going to be clear here: All markets in Alabama. Add it all up together. BCBSAL controls 83% of that.
Source?
 
If insurance companies have to comply to the local mandates, how does selling across state lines benefit the insurance companies?

The same reason it benefits insurance companies to sell every OTHER kind of insurance across state lines.

Why would health insurance be any different?


Apparently, it's gone up to 89% as of 2008... that's nice to know, isn't it?

Debate targets major insurer | TimesDaily.com | The Times Daily | Florence, AL

So... since all insurance companies are monopolies, they could all enter eachothers markets with ease, because they have a substantial revenue base to rely on. You see how this is contradictory?

Nope. Allow them to compete, and they could enter each other's markets with no large immediate hit to their bottom lines.

In fact, ALLOW them to compete, and they will HAVE to enter each other's markets, for fear of losing too much of their own.

Only two companies have a substantial enough network to be able to bid on it. Do you know why that is? The cost of establishing a network for specific cities and locations. That kind of network you can't buy, and if you were entering the market, you would have to establish. A serious losing proposition, especially if you then lost that bid. Do you understand that? Clearly you don't understand how insurance works, but I would figure after repeating myself a few times, you might get the cost involved with establishing a network.

Two things:

1) You don't have to establish a network, just a resource for filing claims, and an incentive to do so (a little better pay than your competitors to doctors, hospitals and pharmacists).

2) This is no reason to prevent companies from being ALLOWED to compete.


I must be confused. What car insurance mandates are there?

Seriously? Car Insurance mandates are drastically different from state to state.

Some states mandate "No-fault" insurance. And others mandate different types of coverage.

Honeslty, I'm wondering if you are just playing devil's advocate.

Source? Also, if a non-profit has a a 94% MLR [that's 10% better than the 'for-profit' average], should you really be complaining about their market share?
Feds: Alabama BlueCross market share grows higher | Birmingham Business Journal

BCBSAL is not a non-profit. Just so you are aware.

And yes. You should ALWAYS be worried about a monopoly.

The way health insurance works makes it different? The substantial networks and up-front cost required, as opposed to the other insurance industries. That's before you can bid on, and win, any contracts. And if you lack contracts, you can't get a good deal with the providers to begin with, because you can't promise them a revenue stream. Which is why insurance companies tend to buy networks in places where they aren't established, but the networks you can buy have less beneficial prices, and so forth.

Let's get past the discussion of whether or not that is true.

How is that justification to prevent them from TRYING?

Yes, which is hard due to the high barrier to entry (networks).

Same situation as above.

How is that justification to prevent them from TRYING?

Selling a business line that is not insurance has nothing to do with insurance profits, does it? And to answer your question; no, I don't think a 3% profit margin is unreasonable.

Again. How is that justification to prevent competition?

The other question is breaking down the TPA businesses and other non-fully insured lives from the fully-insured business lines and looking at them. The non-group market, in many states, loses money or breaks even. The small group market tends to be slightly profitable, if at all. Those are the only two markets we're looking at.

Again... how is this justification to prevent them from competing'?

Remember what you said -- if a line of business isn't profitable, you should drop it. Does that also include the non-group and small group markets? It looks like the insurance companies took your advice and dropped non-profitable lines of business. Now you complain about it. Interesting.

How is this justification to prevent them from competing?


Provided above.
 
The same reason it benefits insurance companies to sell every OTHER kind of insurance across state lines.

Why would health insurance be any different?
Because of the unique barriers to entry in the health market? What kind of negotiation with providers needs to occur for a car insurance company to operate in a state? How substantial a network of providers do they need to have?
Apparently, it's gone up to 89% as of 2008... that's nice to know, isn't it?

Debate targets major insurer | TimesDaily.com | The Times Daily | Florence, AL
Survey results from a pay survey that doesn't publish their methodology? Results that are disputed (within that article) by the company itself, and articulated elsewhere in disagreement by that company?
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama disputes Obama remarks | al.com
Nope. Allow them to compete, and they could enter each other's markets with no large immediate hit to their bottom lines.

In fact, ALLOW them to compete, and they will HAVE to enter each other's markets, for fear of losing too much of their own.
False. They are allowed to compete currently, provided that they obey all local laws. They choose not to due to costs.
Two things:

1) You don't have to establish a network, just a resource for filing claims, and an incentive to do so (a little better pay than your competitors to doctors, hospitals and pharmacists).

2) This is no reason to prevent companies from being ALLOWED to compete.
They are allowed to compete so long as they create a subsidiary within that state. I don't see that as being a substantial barrier to entry.

Yes, they need to have a network. If you don't have a network, you're paying the providers on a fee-for-service (FFS) basis on the provider's line-items. In short, you're paying 3-10x as much as your competitors. Not having a network is very bad news for an insurance company. Which means it's also bad news for the beneficiary.
Seriously? Car Insurance mandates are drastically different from state to state.

Some states mandate "No-fault" insurance. And others mandate different types of coverage.

Honeslty, I'm wondering if you are just playing devil's advocate.
Exactly. So the mandates aren't responsible. There is no reason why they can't currently set up a subsidiary and sell in another state.
BCBSAL is not a non-profit. Just so you are aware.

And yes. You should ALWAYS be worried about a monopoly.
BCBSAL has a profit margin of .6%. Is that too high for you?

TBQH, I don't think that a monopoly where health insurance is concerned is particularly problematic, given profit margins. You know why? Premiums correlate with the rise of provider costs. If you have a monopoly, you can control rising provider costs more effectively.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cg...nd&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

I don't know if you have access to HA, but that's a pretty good article describing the relationship between premiums and provider costs. Without a network to control those costs, the insurance company isn't able to compete because its costs are so much more than its competitors. That's the barrier to entry in a new market, like I've stressed several times. Just FYI.

From the article:
 
Good healthcare

We have good health care. This doesn't work unless you provide proof that your health care system is better.

More likely to escape poverty cycle

Source please?

Child benefit

Stealing someone's hard earned money to give to someone else? Really? That's a good thing?

Higher minimum wage

The only thing this means is that you have a higher standard of living. It doesn't actually mean you have more spending power.

Minimum wage spending power will always remain relatively constant.

Better government

Source?

Nicer enviornment

I can promise you THAT's not true. Take a look at Hawaii, or Alaska, or Montana.

Cheaper transport

Source.

Considering your gas costs are twice what ours are... I find the "cheaper transport" pretty unlikely.

Gasoline prices statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

Less crazy people who think he/she doesnt deserve supports

I'm not sure exactly what this sentence is supposed to mean.

It appears that you have fallen into the trap of believing a caricature of the Republican party.

Republicans and Democrats believe that the poor and needy should be taken care of.

The difference (generalization warning:) is that Republicans believe it is their responsibility, whereas Democrats don't to actually do it personally. Democrats want the government to do it, but Republicans don't trust the government to determine who is truly needy and don't trust the government to truly HELP those in need.

Republicans give much more to charity than Democrats do, in spite of actually earning less.

It's something to think about.
 
All I would like to add is that we in the UK have a much better class of illegal immigrant than you Americans do.


Our illegals are better than yours are na na na nana :p
 
Survey results from a pay survey that doesn't publish their methodology? Results that are disputed (within that article) by the company itself, and articulated elsewhere in disagreement by that company?
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama disputes Obama remarks | al.com

Maybe you misread the article. The 89% was from the AMA, not from a survey.

False. They are allowed to compete currently, provided that they obey all local laws. They choose not to due to costs.

The Wall Street Journal disagrees with you. Which do you think has more credibility. You or the wall street journal?

Insurance Companies Should Be Allowed to Sell Policies Across State Lines - WSJ.com

They are allowed to compete so long as they create a subsidiary within that state. I don't see that as being a substantial barrier to entry.

Then nothing would change by changing the law. No one has anything to gain or lose right? Then why not change it?

Yes, they need to have a network. If you don't have a network, you're paying the providers on a fee-for-service (FFS) basis on the provider's line-items. In short, you're paying 3-10x as much as your competitors. Not having a network is very bad news for an insurance company. Which means it's also bad news for the beneficiary.

Interesting, because we aren't bound by a "network". We can go to any doctor we choose.

Exactly. So the mandates aren't responsible. There is no reason why they can't currently set up a subsidiary and sell in another state.

Again, WSJ disagrees with you... and I side with them (source:see the above link.)

BCBSAL has a profit margin of .6%. Is that too high for you?

And how much of that is waste? How much of that is because of fraud? You don't know. You assume.

They aren't prevented from trying. They can create a subsidiary and compete at any time they choose to. Your argument for why they won't is because it would lose money. It would also lose money if it were a business line within the original company, so that isn't a very good argument.

Again... the WSJ would beg to differ.
 
Maybe you misread the article. The 89% was from the AMA, not from a survey.
I read the article, I just happen to be familiar with the literature sources. The AMA report is based on a survey they conduct. If you google the title of it, you'll probably be able to find this out for yourself quickly. (For the record, ALL of this information is based on one of three surveys. There's the AIS survey, the AMA survey, healthleaders... oh, i think there's a fourth survey company as well. Largely they rely on the insurance providers to self-report data. We don't know whether the AMA study accounted for the error in the number that the BCBS company claims, do we? The GAO reports only have non-group and small-group market numbers, and are from state data. The AHIP reports rely on self-reporting from the insurance companies.)
The Wall Street Journal disagrees with you. Which do you think has more credibility. You or the wall street journal?

Insurance Companies Should Be Allowed to Sell Policies Across State Lines - WSJ.com
An opinion article without an author identified has no creditability to me. I know more about the insurance market than the average person.

A reason why plan costs vary so much (as stressed in that article) is due to the different mandates that states have for insurance. There is nothing preventing a company from incorporating a subsidiary in another state and selling insurance currently.
Then nothing would change by changing the law. No one has anything to gain or lose right? Then why not change it?
Sure. As long as they have to follow the mandates of the individual state.
Interesting, because we aren't bound by a "network". We can go to any doctor we choose.
Which only matters in an HMO's network.

So, an insurance company builds a network by negotiating contracts with a series of providers. Essentially what happens, is that they tend to promise hospitals, or other providers, a certain number of patients (or expected number of patients) in exchange for a deal on pricing.

Now, how that influences you, the consumer, varies by the kind of insurance you buy. If you're in an HMO, the number of doctors you can see is limited to a tier of doctors that they have the best deals with, with referral requirements, etc. If you have a PPO/POS, you have "in-network" and "out-of-network" doctors. Generally speaking, there's about a $10 co-pay difference between the two, though that varies by plan, but you can see anyone you choose.

Yep, looking at the SEHIP website, you're on a PPO. You'll notice, if you look at your allowed benefits, the cost to you as the consumer varies by whether you're in-network or out-of-network. The insurance company is paying substantially more when you're out-of-network as opposed to in-network, and that difference isn't made up for by the difference in cost to you.
http://www.alseib.org/PDF/SEHIP/SEHIPSummary.pdf

/edit: Oh, hey cool: you only have inpatient hospital benefits covered if the hospital is in-network or it is an emergency. Guess that argument is out the window? ;)

And how much of that is waste? How much of that is because of fraud? You don't know. You assume.
How much of what is waste or fraud? Their admin costs are the 4th lowest of the 39 BCBSA plans. That's pretty much where 'waste' would be located, on the insurance side. Fraud? Not sure what insurance fraud you're getting at.
Again... the WSJ would beg to differ.
The WSJ op-ed. Oh no. You'll notice that the reason it says it would save costs is because the plans would be able to ignore the state mandated benefits. I already said that was a large reason for the state-by-state variance in costs. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

Health Care Policy and Marketplace Review: Selling Insurance Across State Lines--Now the Dems Are Pushing the Idea--Why It Won't Work

Here's the Washington Post article. You'll find some information from the CBO inside, showing why it's probably a bad idea to sell across state lines the way you're advocating:
Ezra Klein - Selling insurance across state lines: A terrible, no good, very bad health-care idea

Here's an article from a Duke Public Health School professor on why it doesn't work the way you think (provider costs; utilization differences):
Insurance across state lines? - Other Views - NewsObserver.com

McCain's Health Proposals Under a Microscope, Part IV : Columbia Journalism Review
Even if companies want to move into a new state with fewer mandates and less regulation, they would still have trouble competing. They might save on administrative costs—and maybe get a boost from having no mandates to contend with—but they’d be no match for the dominant players. Most likely, a new entrant would not have a network of providers of its own and, instead, would have to rent a network of doctors and hospitals. Rent-a-network providers typically give discounts only in the 10 to 15 percent range. Policies sold by the new carrier may be cheaper, but not as low as those offered by the major carrier. “It’s an ineffective policy tool,” says one actuary.
 
I read the article, I just happen to be familiar with the literature sources. The AMA report is based on a survey they conduct. If you google the title of it, you'll probably be able to find this out for yourself quickly. (For the record, ALL of this information is based on one of three surveys. There's the AIS survey, the AMA survey, healthleaders... oh, i think there's a fourth survey company as well. Largely they rely on the insurance providers to self-report data. We don't know whether the AMA study accounted for the error in the number that the BCBS company claims, do we? The GAO reports only have non-group and small-group market numbers, and are from state data. The AHIP reports rely on self-reporting from the insurance companies.)

Source? Because I couldn't find what you were talking about.

An opinion article without an author identified has no creditability to me. I know more about the insurance market than the average person.

A WSJ opinion piece trumps your opinion. And I think that will hold true for anyone reading this.

A reason why plan costs vary so much (as stressed in that article) is due to the different mandates that states have for insurance. There is nothing preventing a company from incorporating a subsidiary in another state and selling insurance currently.

You keep saying that. Are you familiar with the legal complexities of money transfers between a company and it's subsidiary?

Sure. As long as they have to follow the mandates of the individual state.

And here we are.

As you say nothing would change without the law, then it is an unnecessary barrier to competition.

We agree. We agree that repealing it would be a good thing.
 
Source? Because I couldn't find what you were talking about.
amednews: Most metro areas dominated by 1 or 2 health insurers :: March 9, 2009 ... American Medical News
The AMA survey, released in late January
You're right, they don't define their methodology anywhere, though.

/edit: Ah look, they have the 2007 version posted. It looks like they use survey data from InterStudy and HealthLeaders, which requires insurers self-report enrollment (and do so in an accurate and consistent manner. I can tell you that from personal experience with a similar survey, it is very flawed. I've only seen a few samples of the IS/HL data, but comparing it to the AIS data, it is probably not in any better shape). Additionally, some MSAs were excluded from the calculation. They've also modified the data to try and remove self-reported rental network lives.
http://www.southernstudies.org/AMA 2007.pdf
A WSJ opinion piece trumps your opinion. And I think that will hold true for anyone reading this.
And the list of well-known (in health circles) folks that I link to articles at the bottom of my post disagreeing with it probably trumps a WSJ opinion piece.

The Washington Post op-ed at least has its' authors name, which makes it more qualified than the WSJ piece.
You keep saying that. Are you familiar with the legal complexities of money transfers between a company and it's subsidiary?
No, I'm not. It happens currently, though.
And here we are.

As you say nothing would change without the law, then it is an unnecessary barrier to competition.

We agree. We agree that repealing it would be a good thing.
False. Like I said before; mandates are important checks on insurance companies (hey check out all those links I posted to well known folks in the health circles! Check that out; we have university professors, consultants, etc)). All of whom think it would be a bad idea (race to the bottom) to remove mandates.

They also note a few other issues:
Network costs (LOL HEY LOOK THERE IT IS AGAIN)
Utilization differences (this is related to the other)
etc.

If you're not going to bother reading the links, but use yours to make your case, you probably shouldn't bother responding. It is amusing that I have a better understanding of your health benefits than you do, and you're arguing with me about them though.
 
amednews: Most metro areas dominated by 1 or 2 health insurers :: March 9, 2009 ... American Medical News

You're right, they don't define their methodology anywhere, though.

/edit: Ah look, they have the 2007 version posted. It looks like they use survey data from InterStudy and HealthLeaders, which requires insurers self-report enrollment (and do so in an accurate and consistent manner. I can tell you that from personal experience with a similar survey, it is very flawed. I've only seen a few samples of the IS/HL data, but comparing it to the AIS data, it is probably not in any better shape). Additionally, some MSAs were excluded from the calculation. They've also modified the data to try and remove self-reported rental network lives.
http://www.southernstudies.org/AMA 2007.pdf

So, please share with us what method you would use.

FYI, BCBSAL states they have 75% of the Alabama market. So I guess we'll go through all of this over the difference between 75% and 83%.

And the list of well-known (in health circles) folks that I link to articles at the bottom of my post disagreeing with it probably trumps a WSJ opinion piece.

The Washington Post op-ed at least has its' authors name, which makes it more qualified than the WSJ piece.

One is a business paper, and the other a news paper. I will take the WSJ over the Washington Post any day.

I don't trust health people when it comes to business decisions.

No, I'm not. It happens currently, though.

So, what you are saying is: You don't know how big of a barrier this is to competition.

So, what you are saying is: You think that since some companies are able to get past it, that it doesn't matter.

What you are missing is: It doesn't make it impossible, it just makes it very difficult to compete.

I don't think that you can argue it is not a barrier to competition, then it's removal benefits everyone, even if you don't think it will have the effect that I think it will.


Let me put this in perspective.



A) A Billion dollar company hires lawyers to ensure compliance with Alabama law. This is a line item in a profitable company's quarterly statement.

OR

b[]B)[/b] A subsidiary is created to enter the Alabama market. Lawyers are hired to ensure compliance. This is the entire quarterly statement of a company that starts off losing money.




A) A Billion dollar company works with doctors, hospitals and pharmacies in Birmingham in order to bid on contracts with Birmingham companies. This expense is a line item expense in a profitable company's quarterly statement.

OR

B) A subsidiary works with doctors, hospitals and pharmacies in Birmingham in order to bid on contracts with companies in Birmingham. This expense is the entire quarterly statement of a company that is losing money.







Obviously example A) Can afford to lose money for awhile on the attempt to break into Alabama's market. Example B) has a limited amount of time that it can continue losing money.

It doesn't take much understanding of business to understand that option A is a better option for entering the market.

In fact, it's a much better option.

This is a VERY high barrier to competition. Hopefully, it will be removed soon. I don't think it will though, because the insurance industry is pretty much controlling the "Health care reform" process right now.
 
So, please share with us what method you would use.

FYI, BCBSAL states they have 75% of the Alabama market. So I guess we'll go through all of this over the difference between 75% and 83%.
Yes, I said that above...
One is a business paper, and the other a news paper. I will take the WSJ over the Washington Post any day.
And he happens to be a business writer. We don't even know who the writer was. Maybe it's a comment from someone outside the WSJ? etc etc.
I don't trust health people when it comes to business decisions.
Of course. Health consultants probably don't understand the influences in the health care industry. How could they? Also, professors must have no clue how the markets work.
So, what you are saying is: You don't know how big of a barrier this is to competition.

So, what you are saying is: You think that since some companies are able to get past it, that it doesn't matter.

What you are missing is: It doesn't make it impossible, it just makes it very difficult to compete.
What you're missing is: it will be very difficult for them to compete either way, and states have insurance mandates for a reason (because insurance companies were cutting necessary benefits like emergency room care)
I don't think that you can argue it is not a barrier to competition, then it's removal benefits everyone, even if you don't think it will have the effect that I think it will.
Allow them to sell wherever? Sure. Remove benefit mandates? No. As long as they comply with state law, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to sell their plans wherever.

The issue is that they can do that now. Tell me, since you're a lawyer: How hard is it to transfer money within a company?
Let me put this in perspective.



A) A Billion dollar company hires lawyers to ensure compliance with Alabama law. This is a line item in a profitable company's quarterly statement.

OR

b[]B)[/b] A subsidiary is created to enter the Alabama market. Lawyers are hired to ensure compliance. This is the entire quarterly statement of a company that starts off losing money.
Except that company is the subsidiary, and so it's a line item on the bigger, profitable company (aka the one that has investors). Since the subsidiary is only a line item on the bigger company, this is an irrelevant comparison.

A) A Billion dollar company works with doctors, hospitals and pharmacies in Birmingham in order to bid on contracts with Birmingham companies. This expense is a line item expense in a profitable company's quarterly statement.

OR

B) A subsidiary works with doctors, hospitals and pharmacies in Birmingham in order to bid on contracts with companies in Birmingham. This expense is the entire quarterly statement of a company that is losing money.
As above. Go read some k's and q's and let me know how small subsidiaries are reported on quarterly statements for publicly traded companies. Hell, go look at companies like WellCare and tell me if they even report the revenues for their different business units (i.e. states against eachother). I can tell you the answer:
They don't.
Obviously example A) Can afford to lose money for awhile on the attempt to break into Alabama's market. Example B) has a limited amount of time that it can continue losing money.

It doesn't take much understanding of business to understand that option A is a better option for entering the market.

In fact, it's a much better option.

This is a VERY high barrier to competition. Hopefully, it will be removed soon. I don't think it will though, because the insurance industry is pretty much controlling the "Health care reform" process right now.
Neither of them look any different, because both of them are line items on a profitable companies statement.

The line items look like this:
SEC Filings

Tell me, where do their different state line items show up on that?

You'll even notice this line, which proves my point:
Balance sheet, Investment and other income, and other expense details by segment have not been disclosed, as they are not reported internally by us. A summary of financial information for our reportable operating segments, as well as a reconciliation to (Loss) income before income taxes is presented in the table below.
 
I do not know world history enough to debate which countries were or were not founded by immigrants. Chancesd are, they were legal immigrants, however.

Bob Maxey

If by legal immigrants, you mean they arrived and slaughtered the inhabitants, then yes, legal immigrants.
 
What you're missing is: it will be very difficult for them to compete either way, and states have insurance mandates for a reason (because insurance companies were cutting necessary benefits like emergency room care)

What you are missing is: One is considerably MORE difficult.

Allow them to sell wherever? Sure. Remove benefit mandates? No. As long as they comply with state law, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to sell their plans wherever.

No one is advocating doing away with state laws regarding benefits (at least aside from Bob).

It appears that here we agree on the subject of this discussion

Neither of them look any different, because both of them are line items on a profitable companies statement.

You do realize that a subsidiary doesn't start out profitable. It starts out as a company that is bleeding money, until it can establish a revenue stream.
 
This is the defense all of the illegal mexican immigrants use.

It's hilarious. And a terrible argument.

Yes, 99% of illegals are mexicans. Look at a map and get over it.

I promise I wont illegally enter the USA. :(

Feel free to come up here, though it will start raining soon and wont stop for 6 months or so. :mad:
 
What you are missing is: One is considerably MORE difficult.



No one is advocating doing away with state laws regarding benefits (at least aside from Bob).

It appears that here we agree on the subject of this discussion
If we are in agreement that they have to comply with the state benefit mandates, then yeah, we're in agreement.
You do realize that a subsidiary doesn't start out profitable. It starts out as a company that is bleeding money, until it can establish a revenue stream.
I realize that. The same would be the case if they opened a new branch of the same company in another state, however. And it would look exactly the same on their investor reports (as you can see in the one I linked -- I'm pretty familiar with all of the insurance companies q's and k's; a few offer enrollment data but none offer state by state cost/revenue).

It also won't decrease costs much (if at all) if you don't do away with state mandates; the mandates are a lot of the reason for the cost, and w/o market share they have no leverage for network negotiations so they would have to bleed a lot of money to build a client base and then take it out on the networks. Wouldn't be the first time, but even so.
 
If we are in agreement that they have to comply with the state benefit mandates, then yeah, we're in agreement.

Then yes, we are in agreement.

I realize that. The same would be the case if they opened a new branch of the same company in another state, however.

Actually no. A subsidiary is a separate company.

One is an unprofitable investment within a profitable company.

The other is an unprofitable company.

There is a definite difference between the two.
 
I do not know world history enough to debate which countries were or were not founded by immigrants. Chancesd are, they were legal immigrants, however.

Bob Maxey

With my love for my southern US brothers (and sisters) in hand I do like to remind those of us in North America that our families came from elsewhere... and usually not "legally" other than we kicked other peoples off.

My family, as example, was displaced from Scotland to Canada after WW1 (and my mother's family is actually from the UK).

I do agree the preferable method should always be to legally gain immigration and I do agree the USA should do everything in it's power to keep jobs for its people first.

So I suppose take this as a "we were likely illegal immigrants too" (in fact in Canada everyone has all but written it all over law the Natives own almost all the land) and the better we treat others, the better we will be treated.
 
Actually no. A subsidiary is a separate company.

One is an unprofitable investment within a profitable company.

The other is an unprofitable company.

There is a definite difference between the two.

Really?

I'll ask you, once again, to take a look at the Ks and Qs of the health insurance companies and show me where they break out the revenue by subsidiary.

Since they don't, you should realize what I've already said -- all of those subsidiaries wind up being part of line items in the statement, just like an investment within a company.

From the perspective of an investor, there is no distinction.
 
Really?

I'll ask you, once again, to take a look at the Ks and Qs of the health insurance companies and show me where they break out the revenue by subsidiary.

Since they don't, you should realize what I've already said -- all of those subsidiaries wind up being part of line items in the statement, just like an investment within a company.

From the perspective of an investor, there is no distinction.

Subsidiaries are separate companies. They file separate SEC filings altogether. They are controlled through stock ownership.

That would be the reason you don't find separate entry for subsidiaries.
 
Subsidiaries are separate companies. They file separate SEC filings altogether. They are controlled through stock ownership.

That would be the reason you don't find separate entry for subsidiaries.

Show me a K or Q from one, then.

There are what, 12-16 publicly held insurance companies. All of them (maybe one exception, I'm too lazy to remember them all) do business in more than one state.

Show me the K or Q detailing the revenue / expenses for one of the subsidiaries.
 
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