ElasticNinja
Android Expert
What do you mean he doesn't have the same rights?
If he was born in the UK to a poor family he would likely have a better life then if he was born to a poor family in the US...
ShadowNinty
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Illegal Immigration simply cannot be tolerated any longer.
- Thread starter Adamx
- Start date
If he was born in the UK to a poor family he would likely have a better life then if he was born to a poor family in the US...
ShadowNinty
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
As for your outrage, perhaps you should not be so mad. I agree, everyone does deserve a chance. But there are proper ways to go about earning that chance. It is easy to point at our laws and founding documents and call foul. It is not my fault you are on the wrong side of the pond and simply were not as lucky as I was.
Bob Maxey
Its not outrage Bob, it's pity.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
I was born AND LIVE on the "wrong side of the pond" FYI
And I can tell you, I am so glad I do!
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
The thread is about illegal immigration.
No, if he is not a citizen, he does not have the same rights I have. But, there are rights and then there are rights. I think everyone should have the right to be free from oppression, the right not to be killed by nutbar rulers, the right to live a happy life. Some call them Human Rights.
Then there are the rights guaranteed to us by several important documents. Those rights are ours because we are Americans.
Bob Maxey
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Well, thats where we need to end this. I love a great off topic/thread catfight as much as the next fella. Not getting into a MY country is better than your country argument.
Bob Maxey
In other words, if you are lucky enough to be born into a Western country then thats fine. If you aren't then unlucky.
I lived in Laughlin, Nevada for 3 years and not once, never did i get any sort of animosity because i was a foreigner, albeit a legal one. No one ever even asked me. But i suspect you don't mind British people or Westerners, i think your problem is deep rooted to people who look foreign.
It is fear of the unknown Bob and is rife in US life. You are bred to be suspicious and paranoid. You carry guns and kill in the name of freedom, your own people - yet refuse to provide life for your own race who are dying through the simple fact they cannot afford medication.
The US suffers one of the highest mortality rates in the Western world, one of the lowest literacy rates and some of the worst healthcare.
But then i guess Immigrants are great scape goats to blame for your problems.
The USA and its people lost every ounce of credibility when they re elected Bush.
I mean come on....
Your problems are much more than a few people trying to make a better life for themselves.
Its only a skin colour Bob - Really, get over it.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
The US has in place immigration laws and have had for a hundred or so yr's,what is so hard to accept about expecting anyone coming here to abide by those laws?Any where in the world you go you have to abide by the laws of that country,for as long as you are there.
In fact the US has the most liberal immigration laws anywhere of the free world,arguably too liberal.
The bottom line is if you come here do so according to the laws of our country,and for the record there is no such thing as free health care,people in health care don't work for free!Now if you want to argue there are some Missionaries doing work,health care somewhere then sure there are but that is not what you were referring to was it?
If you or anyone else are serious about coming here I would strongly suggest the place to start is to learn our history,our culture and our immigration policy(laws),our Constitution,bill of rights and most importantly are your reasons for wanting to live here the right one's for us as well as yourself.
First of all please do not cling so tightly to American history and the immigration bill/statues, since the USA is founded on the principles of immigration it is actually kind of hypocritical.
We can talk all day long about laws, i bet there are laws in the US that you dont agree with. For example the drinking laws, which are completely ridiculous I think you will agree. A law is there as a set of rules, to distinguish right from wrong which is fine.
But those laws were set down by people who often we dont agree with and when we dont agree with them the whole propaganda engine begins and people who are of a weak mindset invariably fall for the crap fed to you. In the US you are more likely to get killed on the road than by a terrorist, yet the US spends billions invading other countries, wouldn't that money be better spent improving road safety?
The reality is, and you dont have to believe it. It is human nature to want to provide for your family, we were fortunate enough to be born into a country whereby this is not to difficult. Laws aside, you cant blame immigrants, illegal or otherwise from trying get a bite of that cherry when their only alternative is persecution, hunger and corruption.
Alex: I cant even begin to be arsed to debate the tripe that fell from you onto this page.
We can talk all day long about laws, i bet there are laws in the US that you dont agree with. For example the drinking laws, which are completely ridiculous I think you will agree. A law is there as a set of rules, to distinguish right from wrong which is fine.
But those laws were set down by people who often we dont agree with and when we dont agree with them the whole propaganda engine begins and people who are of a weak mindset invariably fall for the crap fed to you. In the US you are more likely to get killed on the road than by a terrorist, yet the US spends billions invading other countries, wouldn't that money be better spent improving road safety?
The reality is, and you dont have to believe it. It is human nature to want to provide for your family, we were fortunate enough to be born into a country whereby this is not to difficult. Laws aside, you cant blame immigrants, illegal or otherwise from trying get a bite of that cherry when their only alternative is persecution, hunger and corruption.
Alex: I cant even begin to be arsed to debate the tripe that fell from you onto this page.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Care to explain why immigration laws are hypocritical?
We are not against these folks coming here. We want them to obey the law. Why are so many of you on the left against following the law? My Gosh Sakes, it ain't Android Programming, after all. It is common sense.
My, God, I just realized the problem: we are short on common sense.
Bob Maxey
So what if say, a family from Cambodia manage to make their way to the US and obey the law, but are illegal immigrants. Is that ok? I mean, after all it was the US who kick started all the troubles the Cambodians are still feeling today. Or Vietnamese, again another country completely raped by the US, or Iraqi's, Afghani's...... The list goes on. Don't you feel these people are owed the same freedoms the US promised but failed to deliver at their expense?
You need to read a little i think.
My argument is one of basic ethics. A kind of 'put yourself in their shoes for a minute' stance.
You say there is a lack of common sense, i believe there is a lack of independent against the grain thinking. You are American, you believe what you are told. You are paranoid and your country right now is suffering just like every other Western Nation.
Illegal immigrants are the natural scapegoat, the reality is most are just guys like you or I trying to get away from the shit hand they have been dealt in life.
Its not a left or right thing. It is simply caring for those less fortunate and understanding their want to get away from the poverty that so besieges them and their families.
Dude, can I come to your house (country) and take part in the great benefits of food, shelter, gas money, a car, etc (jobs, government programs) and not have to contribute back to it (tax) and take money away from others that are paying into the system (jobs, emergency visits, etc) all without your permission, AND you don't do anything about it?
I'm all about taking care of your fellow man. I'm not about taking care of fellow man that can't come into this country LEGALLY. I don't care what nationality, color, IQ, wealth, sex, sexual stance, religion, height, weight, etc; If you break FEDERAL law coming into this country, its not about accepting your fellow man anymore.
So we shouldn't have immigration laws at all to allow for countries we have wronged? I'm pretty sure 90%+ countries have wronged other countries and yet they still have immigration laws that they still enforce.
You are mixing up and overhyping International Affairs with Domestic Affairs. The point and problem is we have people south of the border coming here illegally disobeying the laws set by our elected officials. We don't have the money to support another illegal immigrant, I wish we do only to the good ones though but we don't. We are in a multi-trillion dollar debt and this is the time to suppress our moral values and ethics and unroot the illegalls here in the U.S. If you want anarchy and don't want to obey the law feel free to live in Somalia.
Martimus
One bite at a time...
One of the major challenges of this debate is what Arizona's governor refers to as "Rule of Law". Our Federal laws currently state that immigration into the United States without specific and legal approval by the Federal government is "illegal". US law provides a process for individuals and families to come to the US legally. This process doesn't always work as well as it should but it does work.
Just because the individual is starving in their native country isn't, in and of itself, a sufficient justification to break the laws of another sovereign nation. If it were then we'd likely need to look the other way for rapes, murders, robberies, and assaults perpetrated by illegal immigrants. After all their family is hungry... and the end justifies the means, right? Wrong!
Every nation on this planet has laws of one form or another. These laws are in place, presumably, to protect the common good. Violating them is justification for punishment through that nations legal system.
To the best of my knowledge most every nation on the planet also has laws relating to illegal immigration.
In Mexico, Mexican law states that it is currently a Felony to illegally immigrate into Mexico:
Mexico's illegals laws tougher than Arizona's - Washington Times
In France, immigration laws are currently in turmoil... with French law and EU law at odds with each other.
France to respond to EU complaints - BusinessWeek
That said the EU continues to list their own laws against illegal immigration. These laws provide for sanctions against businesses hiring illegal immigrants:
Sanctions against the employment of illegally staying non-EU nationals
and penalties against those who transport illegal immigrants:
Financial penalties on carriers
In Asian nations like Singapore, the government carries laws on it's books against illegal immigration and the trafficing of illegal immigrants:
Ministry of Home Affairs - Enforcement Against Immigration Offenders and Publicity Efforts
https://www.psi.gov.sg/NASApp/tmf/TMFServlet?app=SIR-VOTES-FTCHECK
Singapore police report increase in illegal immigrant boats | Earth Times News
According to the US State Department, immigration laws in Singapore still allows for caning of individuals found guilty of certain immigration violations.
Singapore
Australia has immigration laws on their books that provide for the detention of illegal immigrants:
Background to Immigration Detention - About Immigration Detention - Detention Services
Australian Immigration - Managing the Border: Immigration Compliance
In summary, most every nation on the planet has immigration laws. Some are extremely harsh... others are no quite so harsh. In each case, however, it's mandated that people wanting to emigrate into these nations do so in a manner consistent with that sovereign nations laws.
Just because the individual is starving in their native country isn't, in and of itself, a sufficient justification to break the laws of another sovereign nation. If it were then we'd likely need to look the other way for rapes, murders, robberies, and assaults perpetrated by illegal immigrants. After all their family is hungry... and the end justifies the means, right? Wrong!
Every nation on this planet has laws of one form or another. These laws are in place, presumably, to protect the common good. Violating them is justification for punishment through that nations legal system.
To the best of my knowledge most every nation on the planet also has laws relating to illegal immigration.
In Mexico, Mexican law states that it is currently a Felony to illegally immigrate into Mexico:
Mexico's illegals laws tougher than Arizona's - Washington Times
In France, immigration laws are currently in turmoil... with French law and EU law at odds with each other.
France to respond to EU complaints - BusinessWeek
That said the EU continues to list their own laws against illegal immigration. These laws provide for sanctions against businesses hiring illegal immigrants:
Sanctions against the employment of illegally staying non-EU nationals
and penalties against those who transport illegal immigrants:
Financial penalties on carriers
In Asian nations like Singapore, the government carries laws on it's books against illegal immigration and the trafficing of illegal immigrants:
Ministry of Home Affairs - Enforcement Against Immigration Offenders and Publicity Efforts
https://www.psi.gov.sg/NASApp/tmf/TMFServlet?app=SIR-VOTES-FTCHECK
Singapore police report increase in illegal immigrant boats | Earth Times News
According to the US State Department, immigration laws in Singapore still allows for caning of individuals found guilty of certain immigration violations.
Singapore
Australia has immigration laws on their books that provide for the detention of illegal immigrants:
Background to Immigration Detention - About Immigration Detention - Detention Services
Australian Immigration - Managing the Border: Immigration Compliance
In summary, most every nation on the planet has immigration laws. Some are extremely harsh... others are no quite so harsh. In each case, however, it's mandated that people wanting to emigrate into these nations do so in a manner consistent with that sovereign nations laws.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Short answer, this family cannot be here illegally and obey the law.
I can appreciate wanting to escape tyranny, but the law is the law.
Bob Maxey
I think the reason we are clashing is because of the rule of law.
I watched a program today in the UK called Drugs Incorporated, it was about crystal meth which is pretty much unheard of in the UK. Apparently there are 7 million users in the US and only 6% will ever kick the habit. I cant remember the actual percentage, but of that which is imported, the vast majority comes from Mexico.
I remember from when i lived in the States protests through the streets of Los Angeles in regards to granting an amnesty to all Mexican immigrants who were illegal.
Many Americans seem to blame Mexicans for crime, and i have to admit, i often wondered if young Mexicans went out of their way to look dodgy or suspicious.
But then watch the First 48 and you will see the vast majority of murders are young black men seemingly killing anyone, predominantly each other.
I just wonder if this plays a part in what seems to be a fear in the hearts of white Americans. For instance Bob i would hazard a guess you are a white American. I am not calling you a racist I am suggesting that perhaps your perception on immigration is founded through the fear that must have been instilled in millions of Americans by Mexicans and Black Americans. Black Americans are as American as you, but Mexicans on the other hand are obvious immigrants.
Have you ever been to Reno? I used to holiday in Lake Tahoe when i lived in the States and would often base myself in Reno, i remember every morning I would leave my hotel and drive up toward Lake Tahoe, there would be Mexicans on every street corner all waiting for work. Yet the days there were none a patrol car would not be far away.
Perhaps my open views on immigration are set by the fact I have lived in 5 different countries and am an immigrant myself at the moment in Singapore. Perhaps your closed views on immigration are set by the fact Americans see the bad from Mexicans and not the good.
Talking of Mexicans, do they still do the fourth meal at Taco Bell? I used to love a chicken quesadilla with soft Tacos and a mountain Dew (Number 7 iirc)
I watched a program today in the UK called Drugs Incorporated, it was about crystal meth which is pretty much unheard of in the UK. Apparently there are 7 million users in the US and only 6% will ever kick the habit. I cant remember the actual percentage, but of that which is imported, the vast majority comes from Mexico.
I remember from when i lived in the States protests through the streets of Los Angeles in regards to granting an amnesty to all Mexican immigrants who were illegal.
Many Americans seem to blame Mexicans for crime, and i have to admit, i often wondered if young Mexicans went out of their way to look dodgy or suspicious.
But then watch the First 48 and you will see the vast majority of murders are young black men seemingly killing anyone, predominantly each other.
I just wonder if this plays a part in what seems to be a fear in the hearts of white Americans. For instance Bob i would hazard a guess you are a white American. I am not calling you a racist I am suggesting that perhaps your perception on immigration is founded through the fear that must have been instilled in millions of Americans by Mexicans and Black Americans. Black Americans are as American as you, but Mexicans on the other hand are obvious immigrants.
Have you ever been to Reno? I used to holiday in Lake Tahoe when i lived in the States and would often base myself in Reno, i remember every morning I would leave my hotel and drive up toward Lake Tahoe, there would be Mexicans on every street corner all waiting for work. Yet the days there were none a patrol car would not be far away.
Perhaps my open views on immigration are set by the fact I have lived in 5 different countries and am an immigrant myself at the moment in Singapore. Perhaps your closed views on immigration are set by the fact Americans see the bad from Mexicans and not the good.
Talking of Mexicans, do they still do the fourth meal at Taco Bell? I used to love a chicken quesadilla with soft Tacos and a mountain Dew (Number 7 iirc)
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
I think the reason we are clashing is because of the rule of law.
I watched a program today in the UK called Drugs Incorporated, it was about crystal meth which is pretty much unheard of in the UK. Apparently there are 7 million users in the US and only 6% will ever kick the habit. I cant remember the actual percentage, but of that which is imported, the vast majority comes from Mexico.
I remember from when i lived in the States protests through the streets of Los Angeles in regards to granting an amnesty to all Mexican immigrants who were illegal.
Many Americans seem to blame Mexicans for crime, and i have to admit, i often wondered if young Mexicans went out of their way to look dodgy or suspicious.
But then watch the First 48 and you will see the vast majority of murders are young black men seemingly killing anyone, predominantly each other.
I just wonder if this plays a part in what seems to be a fear in the hearts of white Americans. For instance Bob i would hazard a guess you are a white American. I am not calling you a racist I am suggesting that perhaps your perception on immigration is founded through the fear that must have been instilled in millions of Americans by Mexicans and Black Americans. Black Americans are as American as you, but Mexicans on the other hand are obvious immigrants.
Have you ever been to Reno? I used to holiday in Lake Tahoe when i lived in the States and would often base myself in Reno, i remember every morning I would leave my hotel and drive up toward Lake Tahoe, there would be Mexicans on every street corner all waiting for work. Yet the days there were none a patrol car would not be far away.
Perhaps my open views on immigration are set by the fact I have lived in 5 different countries and am an immigrant myself at the moment in Singapore. Perhaps your closed views on immigration are set by the fact Americans see the bad from Mexicans and not the good.
Talking of Mexicans, do they still do the fourth meal at Taco Bell? I used to love a chicken quesadilla with soft Tacos and a mountain Dew (Number 7 iirc)
Bingo . . . the rule of law. Even you would agree that without laws and their enforcement, we have a problem. We have immigration laws and to suggest that they should not be followed is repugnant. I am bothered by this idea that we should overlook the law just because someone is suffering.
I feel bad for those that suffer, but I will not agree that they must be allowed in. Period. People suffer and people die. If they want in, let them go about getting here legally. There is no other way.
Anyone who knows our history understands that we will move heaven and earth to protect the rights of people. Sick and illegal? Go to most any hospital, and you will not be turned away, your legal status be dammed. No insurance, ditto. It is against the law, in fact. Family murdered? We will fight for you and we will demand justice.
This is America, no finer place.
As for me, I am white. And yes, I've been to Reno. Their jails suck.
Look, I am not mad at you. I just think you need to delve into our history. Read the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. Read the Federalist Papers, the writings of our Founding Fathers, the history of this amazing country.
Read the writings of The Founders and you will come to understand why so much of the crap on the web is just that, crap. Axes being ground by people that either hate our country or are too dammed ignorant. Trust me on this, the media is largely biased and too far left to be of value. They say things about America that are wrong or silly or stupid.
Before you make up your mind that America is bad, read about us and how we came to be. And I am not saying you hate America. It is clear, however, that you need a little education. Many of us do, in fact. We are anything but unfair and we DO NOT hate foreigners, for the most part. We have plenty of fools living here and yes, they are Americans, Too. Sad, pitiful Americans and it is sad.
Bob Maxey
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Talking of Mexicans, do they still do the fourth meal at Taco Bell? I used to love a chicken quesadilla with soft Tacos and a mountain Dew (Number 7 iirc)
LOL . . . interesting that when you are 'talking of Mexicans' you automatically wonder about a Mexican food joint. I occasionally have a few snorts of a good single malt with a friend from Spain, who is often referred to as a Mexican.To some, that is racist.
LOL... Not calling you a racist, just having a little silly fun and poking you with a stick. I do the same thing as well. Bob Maxey
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
Many laws are flaunted and broken when a person arrives in the U.S. and gets a job, not just by that person, but also by the hiring entity.
Those companies want to know why they are not supposed to hire them if they can receive health care, a driver's license and food stamps, all tax supported services; the immigrants pay taxes on their wages the same as legal citizens do.
The American economy has a history of thriving on skilled and semi-skilled workers who were/are either not in the country legally or who were put to work as non-payed slaves.
Some countries have strict labor laws which are fashioned to keep wages in the pockets of only legal citizens. It's probably never been that way in the U.S. and probably never will be.
Bob Maxey
Android Expert
Yes indeed. That is not a good reason for allowing illegals stay, however. One wrong does not make a right, as they say. And yes, they are often given food stamps and a driver's license. Not too sure how many, though.
Some immigrants perhaps do pay taxes, but I am betting many do not.
This is why we need to punish those folks that provide any help to illegals.
Bob Maxey
Ummm... the same thing applies to EVERY other type of insurance. Doesn't seem to be too much for Insurance companies to handle. They seem to do pretty well.
Do a little research. Of ALL the health insurance contracts in this state, across ALL types. Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama has 83% of them.
If you have 83% of your current market, you absolutely can enter a market. Open one or two offices in the big cities and start bidding on contracts.
If you have no OTHER revenue to rely on, then you have to start turning a profit relatively immediately, which isn't likely with the markets sewn up like they are.
Every few years, the Alabama State Employee Insurance contract is put up to bid. There are only two companies allowed to bid on that contract. We must either go with one or the other, because they are the only sizable companies doing business in Alabama.
If you open that up to more competition, then prices go down. It's a pretty simple concept.
Just like car insurance. Right? Which seems to work fine with companies selling insurance across state lines?
Do I not? Are you sure of that? Let me explain something. One company has an effective monopoly on EVERY market in Alabama.
Whether or not I understand the interplay between different health insurance markets, corporations do.
They do well, navigating between different laws for selling every other type of insurance. What makes health insurance different?
You do realize that continually feeing in cash doesn't make it profitable. Right? You actually have to make money on your own to be profitable.
Seems like with record profits, the profit margin could afford to be a little lower. Don't you think?
What does that have to do with selling insurance across state lines?
I'm going to be clear here: All markets in Alabama. Add it all up together. BCBSAL controls 83% of that.
Every country in existence today was founded by immigration.