Microsoft gearing to stop Linux, going beyond Mac lock-in

[argedion]

It's also my cable that I pay for yet I still get bombarded with their advertisements. I remember when cable first hit the scene it was payed by the user so no real advertisements so what happened to that? Unfortunately we have been allowing Corporate America to do with as they wish. They pay millions of dollars to people who lobby for their benefit we pay taxes and have a lot less rights. We don't have people in Washington DC lobbying for our rights. Not much pay in that. Regardless of what Microsoft is planning or what Charmin Toilet Paper is Planning in the end we are the ones who suffer. We buy a car and guess what the place we bought it from has put some form of advertisement on the car. (Usually some kind of chrome name tag) The real problem here is that "We the People" have gotten fat and lazy and want to be entertained. Standing up for our rights it seems has take a back seat in a long long long stretched out limo. We have grown accustomed to the way of life that many Great people fought and died for. Now we dishonor them by not doing anything but watching the world go to hell in a hand basket. But We are entertained.

 

[Member243850]

You can't be serious.

It's MY space. It's MY hard drive. It's MY hardware. Whether it's 1kb or 1 terabyte it doesn't matter, at all. Whether it lies dormant, or not, doesn't matter. Whether it is "harming" someone is not your decision.

Whether something is harmful or not to MY system is purely MY decision, not yours, and certainly not anyone else's.

Man, if I didn't know better I would say your deliberately taking the opposing side in several threads just to start conflict. I certainly hope not, sir.

EDIT: FYI, it does do harm, just by getting in my way. Having to navigate around clutter I don't even want is harmful to my user experience.

I couldn't agree with this any more dude.

Well said dude.

Really really sad what the world is coming to if they will let this crap happen to be frank.

You are right IOWA... it is MY computer not any one else's to tell me what I can and can't put on it.

Really sad.

So sad...

 

[zuben el genub]

I've had dated trialware. I don't mind being limited, but I do mind the devs assuming I have time to sit there for a month straight to do nothing but play with the software.

The company has since gone per use.

 

[zuben el genub]

Despite the fact that I usually don't agree with NAB, they did something right for once.
NAB Says Time Warner Cable Q4 Earnings Tell Retrans Story - 2012-01-27 19:03:39 | Multichannel News

I've read the demographics as apply to radio, and I fit none of them. I enjoy every minute of it, too.

I bought my desktop as a DOS 286. It's been upgraded and updated ever since. The tech just installs the basic OS, so I get nothing else. He knows I have my preferences as to security and security will be the first thing I install. Even the used laptop came with just the OS. But it still irks me that some stuff like Outlook is sitting there and I can't get rid of it.

I got annoyed starting with W2K. 98SE you could find programs that would change the bootup screen. I had a pic of my cat with her butt facing the camera saying "wassup"
No mention of MS anywhere. Can't do that now.

What will be interesting:

MS makes Windows Media Player behave like Quicktime. Apparently you need Quicktime if you want Itunes. This will be one helluva battle over which program opens what since both would grab all audio, video, and image files to themselves. The Zune failed - no longer made. Will MS ban Itunes when they have no equivalent service?

 

[mikedt]

Honestly, I find the whole "bloat" argument on Android, Windows or any other OS completely specious. Windows 7 completely installed takes up ~20 GB. About the smallest hard drive you can get today in a new computer is 250 GB and you have to work to find that. Most come with HDDs that are 500 GB or bigger. So Windows installed with all the "bloat" takes up 4% of the hard drive. Some of that 20 GB is necessary, but let's assume that half of that 20 GB is bloat. You've got 2% of your hard drive taken up by "bloat". That's it. And that is assuming that half of the OS is bloat. If you get down to where you've only got 2% of space left on your drive to save stuff your computer is going to have issues anyway.

In short, computers and phones today have so many resources that "bloat" has no effect on computers whatsoever and limited effect, if any on phones. The so-called "bloat" amounts to so very little of the actual phone's resources it's miniscule.

Really?

As I posted in another recent thread, about useless immovable Facebook bloat on an LG phone that was draining the battery.

"Yeh, there's data charges as well for this useless social networking junk. But what was apparently happening with my friend's LG he bought from PCCW in HK, was that the FB thing was fruitlessly trying to access FB in the Mainland, where FB is blocked and it wouldn't take no for an answer, so it was hanging. The phone even had a large immovable useless FB widget on the home screen, until we rooted it and changed the ROM."

Then there's the number of times I've seen new computers struggling to start, because they're so bogged down with trials, bloat, demos and junk. Often the only real fix is to re-install Windows clean. I bought Sony PC a couple of years ago, the performance was just awful with the amount of bloat that came on the thing.

 

[argedion]

Really?

As I posted in another recent thread, about useless immovable Facebook bloat on an LG phone that was draining the battery.

"Yeh, there's data charges as well for this useless social networking junk. But what was apparently happening with my friend's LG he bought from PCCW in HK, was that the FB thing was fruitlessly trying to access FB in the Mainland, where FB is blocked and it wouldn't take no for an answer, so it was hanging. The phone even had a large immovable useless FB widget on the home screen, until we rooted it and changed the ROM."

Then there's the number of times I've seen new computers struggling to start, because they're so bogged down with trials, bloat, demos and junk. Often the only real fix is to re-install Windows clean. I bought Sony PC a couple of years ago, the performance was just awful with the amount of bloat that came on the thing.

Have formatted every computer I've ever bought first thing because of that fact. Never even allow them to boot to the harddrive. Put in windows disk and format the thing. still end up with a bunch of stuff I have to remove but not near as bad and laggy as when you first run.

 

[Sam Voss]

Stupid Microsoft

I am an osx and Linux person myself, and I find some of the things Microsoft does completely rediculous, do they really think this is a good idea? all they're going to do is lose the interest of people who want multiple operating systems or to change to Linux all together, by that point, they already sold the os anyway, so who cares?!

And as for the bloatware, of drives me insane. I ALWAYS format and reinstall right away, every single time. why do we want this crap on our brand new computers? Of we wanted it, we would buy or install it ourselve.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Then there's the number of times I've seen new computers struggling to start, because they're so bogged down with trials, bloat, demos and junk. Often the only real fix is to re-install Windows clean. I bought Sony PC a couple of years ago, the performance was just awful with the amount of bloat that came on the thing.

I work on computers for a living and I can honestly say that I've never ever seen that. I've seen computers struggle to start because of all the crap that people installed on it. Take a computer out of the box. Turn it on. It boots normally with all the crap installed on it. People end up blaming the bloat, but it's not the problem. If it was the problem then the computer would be dog slow right out of the box.

At the end of the day when you compare the resources that the "bloat" is using vs the resources on the computer, it's miniscule to say the least and has little to no effect on the computer. It's like someone wanting to put a sticker on the front door of my house. To me it's stupid, but if they really want to, I'll let them because it has no effect on me at all. Some battles just aren't worth fighting. Even if you win the battle and computers come with no bloat whatsoever your computer doesn't run any faster or perform any better. You've gained absolutely nothing.

 

[IOWA]

I work on computers for a living and I can honestly say that I've never ever seen that. I've seen computers struggle to start because of all the crap that people installed on it. Take a computer out of the box. Turn it on. It boots normally with all the crap installed on it. People end up blaming the bloat, but it's not the problem. If it was the problem then the computer would be dog slow right out of the box.

At the end of the day when you compare the resources that the "bloat" is using vs the resources on the computer, it's miniscule to say the least and has little to no effect on the computer. It's like someone wanting to put a sticker on the front door of my house. To me it's stupid, but if they really want to, I'll let them because it has no effect on me at all. Some battles just aren't worth fighting. Even if you win the battle and computers come with no bloat whatsoever your computer doesn't run any faster or perform any better. You've gained absolutely nothing.

Untrue.

 

[argedion]

I'm in agreement with IOWA on this one. I think your reaching a bit to far. It does have an impact and I have seen computers run with bloatware and the same computer run without and yes with out is much faster load speeds. However you do have one bit of truth and that is people put as much junk on their computers as they ship with. And don't even bother to ask when was the last time they defragged.

Oh and I have taken some machines out of the box that wouldn't load because of all the junk on them. Its sad when you have to start a brand new box in safe mode just to remove enough stuff to allow it to boot normally.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Have formatted every computer I've ever bought first thing because of that fact. Never even allow them to boot to the harddrive. Put in windows disk and format the thing. still end up with a bunch of stuff I have to remove but not near as bad and laggy as when you first run.

Well, that works for you, but it is not advice everyone should follow. Not that you are serving up advice. In my opinion, formatting and re-installing a brand new operating system is a waste of time.

When I bought my Toshiba, install/recovery disks were not provided. I could buy a set of disks for 60.00. I made a set using the Toshiba utility. Had I formatted it first thing, I would not have a way to make the disks to install the OS.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I'm in agreement with IOWA on this one. I think your reaching a bit to far. It does have an impact and I have seen computers run with bloatware and the same computer run without and yes with out is much faster load speeds. However you do have one bit of truth and that is people put as much junk on their computers as they ship with. And don't even bother to ask when was the last time they defragged.

I disagree with this. I think any performance you gain is minimal and likely purely psychosomatic. I have nothing to prove this except personal experience. I've looked at people's computers before, done piddly things like remove a Google toolbar or something and they swore the computer ran faster. I'm 99% sure it's all in their heads. As a side note, I'm not convinced defragmenting is all that useful nowadays. Once upon a time it did, but nowadays hard drives, RAM and processors are so fast I'm not sure you gain a lot of performance.

Oh and I have taken some machines out of the box that wouldn't load because of all the junk on them. Its sad when you have to start a brand new box in safe mode just to remove enough stuff to allow it to boot normally.

I've taken machines out of the box and found they wouldn't load as well. I put them back in the box and shipped them back to the OEM. They're defective and it's not just the software. Think of it this way. The OEM puts all the bloatware on tens if not hundreds of thousands of computers. If all of them, or even a significant portion of them wouldn't boot up out of the box because of the software, they'd have so many returns they'd have to fix the software or go out of business.

Well, that works for you, but it is not advice everyone should follow. Not that you are serving up advice. In my opinion, formatting and re-installing a brand new operating system is a waste of time.

When I bought my Toshiba, install/recovery disks were not provided. I could buy a set of disks for 60.00. I made a set using the Toshiba utility. Had I formatted it first thing, I would not have a way to make the disks to install the OS.

You would've had to create the restore disks first, then format. Of course the restore disks likely would've put the exact same programs back on so you probably wouldn't have ended up ahead.

 

[argedion]

Well, that works for you, but it is not advice everyone should follow. Not that you are serving up advice. In my opinion, formatting and re-installing a brand new operating system is a waste of time.

When I bought my Toshiba, install/recovery disks were not provided. I could buy a set of disks for 60.00. I made a set using the Toshiba utility. Had I formatted it first thing, I would not have a way to make the disks to install the OS.

And your right it wont work for a lot of people. I happen to be a tad bit knowledgeable in this area. Most are not. Waste of time eh it makes me happy.

Yeah I really disagree with that I mean if part of my purchase is the software then they should be giving me disk however I know it saves them a ton of money to set it all up on the drives. Or atleast I guess it does.

A.Non All I'll say is yes I figure you would disagree. However we are not talking about a toolbar we are talking about games that are only demo's software that are only demo's all of which want to jump in your face as soon as the computer boots. I'm sure your a lot more knowledgeable in this area then I am as I am more of a hobbyist who has worked on friends computers and my own. Oh and my parents and their friends. I know what I have personally experienced. Can't say about anything else. I'm sure you can sit here and validate your opinion as much as I can validate mine. However that would make me feel to much like a Politician and I really rather not.

 

[mikedt]

I work on computers for a living and I can honestly say that I've never ever seen that. I've seen computers struggle to start because of all the crap that people installed on it. Take a computer out of the box. Turn it on. It boots normally with all the crap installed on it. People end up blaming the bloat, but it's not the problem. If it was the problem then the computer would be dog slow right out of the box.

Well this brand new Sony I was referring to that was taking nearly three minutes to boot out of the box, with all the pre-loaded bloat that came with the thing, there was Google Desktop, some Roxio junk, MS Office Trial, McAfee 360 Trial, WinDVD Trial, etc. useless bloat that we didn't need. Performance was very sluggish as well. After we had re-installed Win 7 fresh along with just the software we needed, MSSE, Open Office and Chrome, it made a world of difference to how machine performed. It took only a minute to boot for a start. Same thing for HP, Founder, Dell, Haier, Hasee and others that pre-load all this useless bloat, junk and trials.

You know why PC manufacturers fill their PCs with useless bloat? Because they get paid by McAfee, Norton, Google, etc. to put it on there.

Thing is it's not just that fact it's taking up HDD space, is that fact that all this useless stuff is running services in the background, which take time to start and are consuming real amounts of resources. The Sony PC was running at over 80 processes on Task Manager, after we had re-installed Win and just the software we needed, it was down to just over 50.

At the end of the day when you compare the resources that the "bloat" is using vs the resources on the computer, it's miniscule to say the least and has little to no effect on the computer. It's like someone wanting to put a sticker on the front door of my house. To me it's stupid, but if they really want to, I'll let them because it has no effect on me at all. Some battles just aren't worth fighting. Even if you win the battle and computers come with no bloat whatsoever your computer doesn't run any faster or perform any better. You've gained absolutely nothing.

I think more like when a manufacturer pre-loads McAfee 360 Trial or Google Desktop bloat on a computer. It's like buying a new car, that is loaded down with half a ton of bricks!

EDIT:

If one buys a new PC in China, they often come with some really nasty spyware bloat, that is quite difficult to remove. A thing called QQ along with the totally useless Qihoo 360 "antivirus".

 

[A.Nonymous]

A.Non All I'll say is yes I figure you would disagree. However we are not talking about a toolbar we are talking about games that are only demo's software that are only demo's all of which want to jump in your face as soon as the computer boots. I'm sure your a lot more knowledgeable in this area then I am as I am more of a hobbyist who has worked on friends computers and my own. Oh and my parents and their friends. I know what I have personally experienced. Can't say about anything else. I'm sure you can sit here and validate your opinion as much as I can validate mine. However that would make me feel to much like a Politician and I really rather not.

Personally, I've never seen a game demo that launched on startup unless the user's had set it up that way. I've set up a lot of new computers. I recently set up about 15-20 of them all at the same time for a client. I probably either set them up from scratch or re-install them from scratch at least a 100 times a year. I've seen tons and tons of bloatware on tons and tons of computers. I remove it as a matter of course because users will add their own bloat on top of the pre-installed bloat and just make things worse. Plus, it confuses the crap out of users in a lot of cases. I've never found that it slows a computer down. If people took a computer of the box and left it that way and never installed their own crap on it, it would run fine indefinitely I think. That's my expert opinion (and I'm the biggest expert on my opinion that I know). You're certainly entitled to your own.

 

[Satires]

I never have these problems with Linux. I'm not trying to come off like a smart *ss or anything...

I some instances one will need windows for certain software, but I got lucky in the sense that all my favorite software works under "wine" (The ability to run some windows based software on linux).

I now run linux exclusively.

Gimp replaces photoshop

Open office replaces microsoft word

Etc, etc.

There is no antivirus and the boot times and shut down times are always fast.

Linux also never needs to be defragmented and can run for days with out a re-boot.

Here, try it, it's absolutely free! and it is a full robust operating system with a user friendly environment for the average joe ubuntu.com

 

[linuxrich]

can run for days with out a re-boot.

Substitute 'weeks' or 'months' for 'days' where appropriate. This from our main family PC.

rich@optimus:~$ uptime
 09:10:25 up 41 days, 14:15,  5 users,  load average: 0.83, 1.07, 0.75

 

[Satires]

Substitute 'weeks' or 'months' for 'days' where appropriate. This from our main family PC.

rich@optimus:~$ uptime
 09:10:25 up 41 days, 14:15,  5 users,  load average: 0.83, 1.07, 0.75

I was being modest and honest. I talk from experience, meaning I have not run my computer for weeks at a time to know for sure. I didn't want to mislead anyone by saying something I haven't actually done myself.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[A.Nonymous]

You know why PC manufacturers fill their PCs with useless bloat? Because they get paid by McAfee, Norton, Google, etc. to put it on there.

You're absolutely right. Yet Microsoft gets blamed for it. They pay the OEMs to put Office on there. No question there. Beyond that, the rest of the stuff is none of their fault. Yet they get blamed for it. Goes back to the original post. It's not Microsoft's fault people infect their computers with root kits. Yet MS gets blamed for it so they have to lock the boot loader down. It's not MS's fault that people don't run antivirus software on their computers. Yet MS gets blamed for it and now they're going to force people to put Security Essentials on their computers.

The thing is that one man's bloat is another man's value add. I'm with you that McAfee, Norton, Google, Office trials, etc..... are all bloat. However, there are people who love those programs because it keeps them from having to install it themselves. To them having Office pre-installed is a feature.

My car came with an AM/FM radio. To me this is useless bloat. I haven't listened to terrestrial radio in many, many years. I do podcasting, Pandora, Mog and other such streaming services. It also has a CD player. I can't recall the last time I bought a CD. Why would I pay $17.99 for a CD when I can get the digital version for $9.99? Less than that if I don't buy the crappy songs that are on every album and buy just the good ones. To me, this whole unit is useless bloat. I'd rather have an in-dash GPS with no radio or CD capabilities. Maybe give it an aux-in so I can plug in my phone and play music. But I would have to pay extra just to get this in my car that I paid for. If the car came without an AM/FM radio and CD player and had just an in-dash GPS, people would no doubt complain about that as well. The car also has cruise control on it. I do the vast majority of my driving in the city. I drive 5 miles or so a day on the highway, but that is during rush hour traffic so the cruise does me no good. It just takes up space on my car's steering wheel and offers nothing. To me, this is bloat. To other people, cruise is an essential feature. I've had the car for 2-3 years now. I've used cruise maybe once or twice.

 

[jroc]

Well...

I went the custom PC route a few years ago and kick myself for not doing it sooner. (Got the PC from a website that custom builds them to your specification) had my own copy of Windows, have alot of Linux distros...so I chose the No OS option.

I got my kids mother a PC from Best Buy last year with the OS already installed. Just wanted to do the quick n easy thing.

Seems like I will be advising any and everyone I deal with to go the custom PC route from now on.

Reading the first 3 pages...I can agree with both sides on this. But...I dont totally agree with it for one reason: MS isnt making the hardware. I can understand if it was Apple, they make the PC's. I was already peeved about major hardware changes causing activation issues on Windows PC's. Now this?

 

[mikedt]

You're absolutely right. Yet Microsoft gets blamed for it. They pay the OEMs to put Office on there. No question there. Beyond that, the rest of the stuff is none of their fault. Yet they get blamed for it. Goes back to the original post. It's not Microsoft's fault people infect their computers with root kits. Yet MS gets blamed for it so they have to lock the boot loader down. It's not MS's fault that people don't run antivirus software on their computers. Yet MS gets blamed for it and now they're going to force people to put Security Essentials on their computers.

The thing is that one man's bloat is another man's value add. I'm with you that McAfee, Norton, Google, Office trials, etc..... are all bloat. However, there are people who love those programs because it keeps them from having to install it themselves. To them having Office pre-installed is a feature.

But these are trials, NOT the full monty. One will often see looks of disbelief when they expire and they find they have to pay $$$$ for them.

My car came with an AM/FM radio. To me this is useless bloat. I haven't listened to terrestrial radio in many, many years. I do podcasting, Pandora, Mog and other such streaming services. It also has a CD player. I can't recall the last time I bought a CD. Why would I pay $17.99 for a CD when I can get the digital version for $9.99? Less than that if I don't buy the crappy songs that are on every album and buy just the good ones. To me, this whole unit is useless bloat. I'd rather have an in-dash GPS with no radio or CD capabilities. Maybe give it an aux-in so I can plug in my phone and play music. But I would have to pay extra just to get this in my car that I paid for. If the car came without an AM/FM radio and CD player and had just an in-dash GPS, people would no doubt complain about that as well. The car also has cruise control on it. I do the vast majority of my driving in the city. I drive 5 miles or so a day on the highway, but that is during rush hour traffic so the cruise does me no good. It just takes up space on my car's steering wheel and offers nothing. To me, this is bloat. To other people, cruise is an essential feature. I've had the car for 2-3 years now. I've used cruise maybe once or twice.

Yeh but the AM/FM radio, CD player and cruise control doesn't affect the performance of the your car though do they, let alone expire and nag you for money.

Could you imagine buying a new car which came with a CD player that made it go 50-60% slower and then after 30 days the CD player wanted $100 bucks to keep it working? ... now to me, that's like a new PC with the Norton or McAfee trial bloat.

 

[Bob Maxey]

In fact, sometimes the Linux one is a hair more expensive... I'm sure we, the consumers would find it pretty much impossible to get to the truth behind that because of NDAs and the like.

As always, corrections are welcome, but I recall something about manufacturers that license Windows must pay MS a royalty on every machine they sold. If they made 1,000 Windows computers and 500 Linux computers, they paid MS a fee on all 1,500 machines.

Not sure if this was true or just Internet BS. I remember it because at the time, it seemed unfair. If it is true, you will be paying for Windows and Linux.

Perhaps the reason they cost more has to do with license arrangements with MS. Or it takes more effort to install Linux or the added customer support problems that will most definitely occur when the clueless meet Linux. The OS might be (essentially) free, but it will likely cost the user and manufacturer both time and money.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Reading the first 3 pages...I can agree with both sides on this. But...I dont totally agree with it for one reason: MS isnt making the hardware. I can understand if it was Apple, they make the PC's. I was already peeved about major hardware changes causing activation issues on Windows PC's. Now this?

So those flight controllers, perhaps a hundred different versions of the mouse, countless keyboards, Zunes, webcams, Xbox 360 and related peripherals come from what, magic forests?

I think MS makes a hell of a lot of hardware. Depending on how you define "manufacturer."

Apple does not make phones or iPads; they pay someone else to make them.

Many manufacturers did not make what most people think they made. We made Newton and other modems for them. Palm did not manufacture Palm Pilots . . . we made them. RIO did not make MP3 players, we made them. Most laptop manufacturers (that make hardware) did not make their PCMCIA modems, we made them. Almost all of them, actually.

How do you define manufacturer? I think MS either owns factories or they use a sub-contractor, just like Apple. Does Apple own factories? If so they are a hardware manufacturer. If not, they are like MS and nobody makes hardware.

Both companies "make" hardware as well as operating systems. About all MS does not seem to make is computers. Or do they?

Clarify your point please.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

True, but I will soon come close to matching MS. I am not supposed to talk about this, but I am fortunate in that a Nigerian Prince as well as a Potentate from Belgium has named me in their wills. I just received several super secret and confidential email messages from really real lawyers.

I stand to inherit tens of millions of billions of dollars which I will invest in Oracle.

^LOL

You owe me 10%.

Just keep us in quality beer! That and I'll quit and be your personal bodyguard for a ridiculously obscene sum of money, there's actually more to my screen name than just a catchy title!

 

[Bob Maxey]

Just keep us in quality beer! That and I'll quit and be your personal bodyguard for a ridiculously obscene sum of money, there's actually more to my screen name than just a catchy title!

OK BigEd . . . I'll contact you off list through back channels. Very ultra-top-top-top secret channels. I must be careful whenever I hire a thug. I hope you can really use a samurai sword or you are useless.

Any Texan with Samurai in his name says something. I will expect obscene amounts of violence directed toward my attackers. I am an Old Testament kinds of guy. My friends in Florida will swear you spent the week playing Canasta, so you can beat my protagonists freely.

Before you submit your resume, I must confirm that you can you disappear into the night, silently glide across the telephone wires and drop down on my protagonist and disappear him. No, wait, that is Ninjas or ex-CIA.

Sorry Big Ed, I need three Ninjas or ex-CIA.

As for beer, I keep a few good ales on tap. Not perhaps the best, but free. I hear Texans like free beer; they use it to wash the cow Floppings off their little pointy booties so it must be free.

I also have an extensive soft drink cellar if you want something softer. I am thinking about a case of Bawls Guarana Beverage from here:

Galco's Soda Pop Stop