Microsoft gearing to stop Linux, going beyond Mac lock-in

[A.Nonymous]

I have been waiting for the correct moment to say something in this thread (read: now is the time).

Those who believe MS is benevolent in its actions surrounding malware you have a point: Windows is the target of the majority of viruses/trojans/etc. That said, it is understandable that a company would do SOMETHING to prevent attacks. But has Microsoft ever considered rebuilding the OS from scratch to fend off this nonsense?

Think about it: When Apple launched its Walled Garden, OSX, it was a complete 180 from all MAC OS's that had preceded it. Built on the Unix kernel(read: stable, dev friendly, vulnerable to attacks but not nearly on a scale seen by MS) from the ground up, with planned backward compatibility (read: cocoa apps, etc) and a commitment to a unified experience. Regardless of market share, this methodology rescued a fledgling company and created a jumping off point for greatness, innovation and birth/rebirth of (an) industry. Why does this apply???????

Windows, even in its current iCore 64-bit form is still DOS at its heart. And one could teach a monkey the keystrokes necessary to program a virus/trojan/etc to compromise this flawed environment. So MS is lazily taking a step to lock down the hardware since it is abundantly clear that while it may have gotten fortunate to have such a huge market share in the PC world, stability and security is had in a UNIX based environment, not in an outdated, hacked-over, and over, and over, (read: Windows 2000 Pro was THE MOST "secure" iteration of Win but who cares now?) OS. Kudos to MS in its lazy approach to security. Boo to MS for trying to implement security that blocks a truly stable environment. You only have to look at OSX's 12 year of outstanding security and UNIX's long standing history of the same to deduce: MS needs to rebuild!

I don't like that Microsoft is taking this approach. Until proven of anti-trust it can run with this nonsense.

Take off the blinders...Linux is Super Awesome.

BTW...I have been a user of MAC OS.x, OSX.x, Basic, DOS, Windows.x and Ubuntu.

I own an iPod Shuffle and a Verizon Samsung Galaxy Nexus. In think iPhones are sexy looking but too impractical for my my inner geek. My name is jmar and this is my 2¢.

Got your back Mr. Early.

jmar

OS X does not get attacked nearly as much as MS because it has a much, much smaller market share. When you have one OS who's market share is 90% + and another OS who's share is in the single digits, who are you going to attack if you're a virus writer. It doesn't matter if a trained monkey could write a virus for the OS with the single digit share or not. No one is going to. It's not worth it.

We've seen malware and viruses on OS X. Apple just refuses to acknowledge them and usually the stories go away. A lot of the malware is simple social engineering that takes advantage of user's stupidity. A lot of the malware on Windows is the exact same way. Windows is attacked far more often just because it is the 500 lb gorilla. And no OS is more or less secure with a clueless user at the keyboard.

I'd like to ask for two counts to be taken into consideration m'lud. I would have bought a Linux ready/pre-installed machine in both cases but:
- It was cheaper/more convenient to buy what I eventually did.
- I got some perverse satisfaction knowing that Microsoft and others would have subsidised my purchase with their c**pware 'free for 30 days trial' nonsense. Which unceremoniously got consigned to /dev/null before it ever saw the light of day.

When I've looked on line, the Linux boxes tend to be cheaper because you're not paying MS licensing. Your mileage may certainly vary. I don't doubt that. Then you have to factor in shipping and it may well be cheaper to buy in the store where you can't buy Linux pre-installed for the most part. In any case, if you bought a Windows machine, MS got your money already.

 

[linuxrich]

MS got your money already.

MS certainly got to claim a couple more for their alleged 99.999999% desktop market share. As for the money thing. I'm not so sure. See my previous comments about subsidies. It's interesting to note that nearly every time there are similar machines on sale from a specific vendor, one with windows and one with Linux, there is little difference in price. In fact, sometimes the Linux one is a hair more expensive... I'm sure we, the consumers would find it pretty much impossible to get to the truth behind that because of NDAs and the like.

 

[jmar]

OS X does not get attacked nearly as much as MS because it has a much, much smaller market share. When you have one OS who's market share is 90% + and another OS who's share is in the single digits, who are you going to attack if you're a virus writer. It doesn't matter if a trained monkey could write a virus for the OS with the single digit share or not. No one is going to. It's not worth it.

We've seen malware and viruses on OS X. Apple just refuses to acknowledge them and usually the stories go away. A lot of the malware is simple social engineering that takes advantage of user's stupidity. A lot of the malware on Windows is the exact same way. Windows is attacked far more often just because it is the 500 lb gorilla. And no OS is more or less secure with a clueless user at the keyboard.

Thank you for supporting my assertions.

jmar

 

[zuben el genub]

With all the above said, this is pretty good:
Microsoft wants Gmail users to switch to Hotmail - Neowin.net

Now if you use Linux and won't be able to boot into it with 8, what good will Hotmail do?

If you use Linux now and can access Hotmail, MS has no way of monitoring/controlling anything on the computer. They cannot push security warnings or IE on you.

MS is pushing the fact that Hotmail integrates with Facebook.

Kind of arrogant. Hotmail is also one of the worst spam domains.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I'm confused. You'd expect a company to not want people to use their product? A company wanting users to use their product is evil? I don't understand the connection.

 

[zuben el genub]

If MS is so hellbent to stop Linux, trying to get Linux users to use Hotmail might be self defeating. If it's true about W8 and the boot sector, then a Linux user couldn't use a new computer if UEFI will be coded in the hardware.

If you are dual booting now - some use Linux for everyday, and maybe just game on Windows. While you can use Hotmail with an email client on Linux now, MS cannot send you security update warnings, update IE (like trying to get rid of IE6) or dominate anything on your system. MS could stop the POP service. That kinda defeats any kind of domination if that's what MS has in mind. They can also sync no data elsewhere unless you are set up to use Outlook or whatever on your phone.

So why doesn't MS just admit they are going after Windows and certain Mac users?

I'm sure that Linux diehards would rather fight than switch. I would.

 

[A.Nonymous]

If MS is so hellbent to stop Linux, trying to get Linux users to use Hotmail might be self defeating. If it's true about W8 and the boot sector, then a Linux user couldn't use a new computer if UEFI will be coded in the hardware.

If you are dual booting now - some use Linux for everyday, and maybe just game on Windows. While you can use Hotmail with an email client on Linux now, MS cannot send you security update warnings, update IE (like trying to get rid of IE6) or dominate anything on your system. MS could stop the POP service. That kinda defeats any kind of domination if that's what MS has in mind. They can also sync no data elsewhere unless you are set up to use Outlook or whatever on your phone.

So why doesn't MS just admit they are going after Windows and certain Mac users?

I'm sure that Linux diehards would rather fight than switch. I would.

I've read that article twice. What I get from it is that MS wants people to switch to Hotmail from GMail and has provided a tool that will do this for you. It also covers all of the "virtues" of Hotmail and how it's the shiznit and all the cool kids are using it. Fine. I expect that kind of crap to come out of any company that is marketing it's product. Is Hotmail crap? Absolutely. I haven't used it for years because it is such a crappy product. I fail to see how Microsoft trying to get people to switch to Hotmail is an attack on Linux. It seems to me you are really reaching there.

 

[IOWA]

I've read that article twice. What I get from it is that MS wants people to switch to Hotmail from GMail and has provided a tool that will do this for you. It also covers all of the "virtues" of Hotmail and how it's the shiznit and all the cool kids are using it. Fine. I expect that kind of crap to come out of any company that is marketing it's product. Is Hotmail crap? Absolutely. I haven't used it for years because it is such a crappy product. I fail to see how Microsoft trying to get people to switch to Hotmail is an attack on Linux. It seems to me you are really reaching there.

Eh.. I have to agree. I don't see any kind of correlation between hotmail and Linux.

 

[MeepMeepChu]

Lol that link there certainly derailed things. and just as everyone got out of talking in circles too. =)

Users of special proprietary software will also cling to it.

Some crafting/embroidery software can be up to 2 years behind the curve.
Some software is not cheap, costing 2 grand. Some of this software also did not like security on installation. You had to turn security off to install.

You also might have reached the point where an upgrade isn't worth it. It's mostly just cosmetic bells and whistles.

Wine will never support these programs. So I keep my special programs on separate boxes and offline.

Oh I did forget to consider professional users and proprietary software. I've always been of the opinion that If you can buy software, you can find a superior product for free if you take the time to look... but I've certainly never verified it for most of them so the "you get what you pay for" view might be just as valid.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Oh I did forget to consider professional users and proprietary software. I've always been of the opinion that If you can buy software, you can find a superior product for free if you take the time to look... but I've certainly never verified it for most of them so the "you get what you pay for" view might be just as valid.

I'm reminded of the classic gripe about Internet users. Internet users have the mindset that if it's free, it's not any good and if you have to pay for it, it should be free.

 

[zuben el genub]

Lol that link there certainly derailed things. and just as everyone got out of talking in circles too. =)




Oh I did forget to consider professional users and proprietary software. I've always been of the opinion that If you can buy software, you can find a superior product for free if you take the time to look... but I've certainly never verified it for most of them so the "you get what you pay for" view might be just as valid.

I haven't seen a free machine embroidery app yet. There are less expensive solutions, but if you are a pro or just want certain things, you are stuck. The makers of the machines design the software to work with their products. That's why most stuff is behind the curve. You need the hardware to communicate with the machine in some cases, or software to write in the machine's language so you can transfer by USB or direct. And until recently, there was nothing for Mac users unless they had parallels. So I wouldn't expect anything from Linux.

I don't consider Photoshop (paid) to be better than Gimp (free) - just different and not what I'm used to. I'll pay for the PS interface and integration with other Adobe programs. For general use, I am finding Ubuntu superior in most ways. The thing that drives me nuts is no file formats like Windows. I haven't figured out what some stuff is.

It's not so much all the free apps - it's the fact that you get the chance to really work with some software before deciding what works best for you. Too many Windows trial versions are date limited. I'd rather have them use limited.

 

[zuben el genub]

Maybe there is hope yet:
Microsoft seeking open-source expert to help put Linux on Azure | ZDNet

Granted that's a cloud, but it's a start.

About Hotmail - it's a marketing ploy. Done right, it might have the same effect as the Iphone and Apple. In the long run that disses Linux by leaving Linux out of anyone's consideration.
"Oh we just switched to Hotmail 'cause it's so easy to post on Facebook" Probably kill their spouse if he switches to Linux.

 

[argedion]

I have had a Hotmail account ever since I got on the internet back in the 90's I remember when Microsoft bought Hotmail. I thought then well crap there goes the neighborhood. Yes I have gotten tons of spam since then. Really now all that goes into the junk folder and I still get all my essential mail. If memory serves me correct Microsoft bought Hotmail because they wanted to offer free email accounts but didnt want to use the "microsoft.com" servers as they wanted to save those resources. Hotmail at the time was loosing the edge do to other emails like yahoo, excite and others that were coming out of the woodworks. Anyways none of that has anything what so ever to do with this subject.

So on subject.

Microsoft is a corporation who has practiced strong arming and any other tactics that they feel will give them an edge hence its why they are a billion dollar company. Rather we like the way they choose to do business or not we still use their products. No I do not wish to purchase any computer that will not allow me to set up on it what I wish. However in the long run I'm not sure its going to matter much anymore. While still an advid Linux user the issues is really how much longer are we going to have desktops/laptops with the popularity of tablets, smart phones, smart TV's, and other devices that are taking away the need for the "Home" computer. One of the main reasons that Google went with the linux kernel was the fact that it is so much easier to covert over since it has a vast amount of hardware support. Where as Windows still has less hardware support than Linux (were talking global devices not just computers) For several years now Linux has been used in car computer systems to phones to the coffee maker on your counter. Microsoft has been to limited in is policys regarding Open Source. So it makes it harder for developers to use their system to make things such as a coffee maker.

 

[zuben el genub]

You are right about the hardware, but business software is another can of worms.
Some are convinced that MS Office is the only way to go. Every document, calendar, what have you is geared to office.

I'm not sure about a bank's server, but the software they use for customers is some form of MS . I've used merchandising software, and most of that was MS based. The writers of the software can fix issues by connecting to the terminal in question. We had custom software at another office, and that was MS based, too.

Can open source overtake this? Can someone make a profit with software like this for business?

Tablets will take the place of a desktop in some instances, but business will always have other demands. I can think of one company now that will deal with MS Office on Android. MS is talking about Office subscriptions via cloud. MS could shut out Linux users (don't think so) by requiring IE. There are other programs geared to both Mac and Windows. Android will have to adapt, license, do something to get on the road business apps. Businesses will demand usage their way, and their security (which is fair)

Windows tablets would have an advantage with MS oriented systems with Ipad close second. Can android/linux break into this?

 

[A.Nonymous]

You are right about the hardware, but business software is another can of worms.
Some are convinced that MS Office is the only way to go. Every document, calendar, what have you is geared to office.

I'm not sure about a bank's server, but the software they use for customers is some form of MS . I've used merchandising software, and most of that was MS based. The writers of the software can fix issues by connecting to the terminal in question. We had custom software at another office, and that was MS based, too.

Can open source overtake this? Can someone make a profit with software like this for business?

Tablets will take the place of a desktop in some instances, but business will always have other demands. I can think of one company now that will deal with MS Office on Android. MS is talking about Office subscriptions via cloud. MS could shut out Linux users (don't think so) by requiring IE. There are other programs geared to both Mac and Windows. Android will have to adapt, license, do something to get on the road business apps. Businesses will demand usage their way, and their security (which is fair)

Windows tablets would have an advantage with MS oriented systems with Ipad close second. Can android/linux break into this?

The main obstacle standing in the way of open source in enterprise is support IMO. People don't want to have to post to a forum and wait for a response or pop into a chat room on some IIRC server and hope that someone will respond. They want to call up support and get someone on the phone who can fix it.

About Hotmail - it's a marketing ploy. Done right, it might have the same effect as the Iphone and Apple. In the long run that disses Linux by leaving Linux out of anyone's consideration.
"Oh we just switched to Hotmail 'cause it's so easy to post on Facebook" Probably kill their spouse if he switches to Linux.

I still don't follow. Can you not access Hotmail on Linux? It's web based. Can't you access it from any browser? I know Microsoft's other web based products like Office Live can be accessed from any browser. If you waved a magic wand right now and everyone had Hotmail I don't see how this would affect Linux at all. People would be pissed because we all had crappy email, but I don't see how Linux would be affected.

 

[IOWA]

I haven't seen a free machine embroidery app yet. There are less expensive solutions, but if you are a pro or just want certain things, you are stuck. The makers of the machines design the software to work with their products. That's why most stuff is behind the curve. You need the hardware to communicate with the machine in some cases, or software to write in the machine's language so you can transfer by USB or direct. And until recently, there was nothing for Mac users unless they had parallels. So I wouldn't expect anything from Linux.

I don't consider Photoshop (paid) to be better than Gimp (free) - just different and not what I'm used to. I'll pay for the PS interface and integration with other Adobe programs. For general use, I am finding Ubuntu superior in most ways. The thing that drives me nuts is no file formats like Windows. I haven't figured out what some stuff is.

It's not so much all the free apps - it's the fact that you get the chance to really work with some software before deciding what works best for you. Too many Windows trial versions are date limited. I'd rather have them use limited.

Na, stick with the paid stuff for embroidery. Trust me, I've looked. Extensively. Being limited to one workstation is a PITA (licensing issues) but it is what it is. That's why VPN/Remote desktop comes in big time handy.

Another thing, Photoshop is worlds better than gimp for custom creates and ease of color separation to a varying degree on what kind of machine's you're using.

 

[zuben el genub]

Re Hotmail.

It is targeting young people. We had a major post on Grinds your gears about kids that didn't get the phone or whatever they wanted for Xmas. There's another thread like that on another forum complaining about kids "having to have" an expensive coat to belong.

Ads on some younger kids show were told to change. Children of that age were not supposed to be subject to targeted advertising. I taught my kid that most marketing was BS. Peer pressure and snooping are getting out of hand. I don't like "catch 'em young" before a kid learns to compare.


Google is getting just as bad. So is Apple. One thing in Google's favor, it isn't advertising all over TV. Sprint had the only ad here that featured the little robot. The Apple and MS ads are getting ridiculous.


I'm all for consumer advocacy. If you choose any system after getting the info, that's fine. It's what suits you and your needs. Most people don't do that. Or don't see the end result.

I really resented early internet banking. You HAD to use IE. Most early AV - needed IE to work. (Eset an exception) What's going on now is like loopholes in tax laws. Or a camera system. If you choose either Nikon, Canon or a 4/3 dslr - you will probably buy lenses. Good lenses are expensive, so unless you can afford it, you stay with the original system. So it's a mini monopoly. While there is choice, making a choice too expensive or hard on the consumer to switch is a lock-in. Pressure from your family for ease of use doesn't help.

I don't like being "locked in" to a certain brand. I'd drop Android on the phone in a second if I could find a good Nokia N900 locally. I'd drop the tablet if I could get a good linux one that would let me run Stellarium. Linux would probably let me remove bloat without rooting, too. There's tons of crap I can't remove from XP. I want the disc space for Photoshop which uses it as a swap drive. I'm locked into that - but at the point where upgrading would make no sense.

I've run into rabid Gimp users. I learned color separation manually, you are right and Gimp just doesn't conform. I just haven't helped any screen printers lately. Illustrator and Photoshop are integrated, and it's easy to lay out in Indesign. ( I've used Illustrator for layout, too) Inkscape isn't bad as a vector system, but it's not as integrated.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Honestly, I find the whole "bloat" argument on Android, Windows or any other OS completely specious. Windows 7 completely installed takes up ~20 GB. About the smallest hard drive you can get today in a new computer is 250 GB and you have to work to find that. Most come with HDDs that are 500 GB or bigger. So Windows installed with all the "bloat" takes up 4% of the hard drive. Some of that 20 GB is necessary, but let's assume that half of that 20 GB is bloat. You've got 2% of your hard drive taken up by "bloat". That's it. And that is assuming that half of the OS is bloat. If you get down to where you've only got 2% of space left on your drive to save stuff your computer is going to have issues anyway.

In short, computers and phones today have so many resources that "bloat" has no effect on computers whatsoever and limited effect, if any on phones. The so-called "bloat" amounts to so very little of the actual phone's resources it's miniscule.

 

[argedion]

Yeah bloatware on a computer is pretty minuscule in the big picture you can get USB drives 750 for under a hundred dollars. Even the flash drives are getting fairly cheap now

 

[IOWA]

Honestly, I find the whole "bloat" argument on Android, Windows or any other OS completely specious. Windows 7 completely installed takes up ~20 GB. About the smallest hard drive you can get today in a new computer is 250 GB and you have to work to find that. Most come with HDDs that are 500 GB or bigger. So Windows installed with all the "bloat" takes up 4% of the hard drive. Some of that 20 GB is necessary, but let's assume that half of that 20 GB is bloat. You've got 2% of your hard drive taken up by "bloat". That's it. And that is assuming that half of the OS is bloat. If you get down to where you've only got 2% of space left on your drive to save stuff your computer is going to have issues anyway.

In short, computers and phones today have so many resources that "bloat" has no effect on computers whatsoever and limited effect, if any on phones. The so-called "bloat" amounts to so very little of the actual phone's resources it's miniscule.

Who cares how much space it takes? It shouldn't be there if we don't want it there.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Who cares how much space it takes? It shouldn't be there if we don't want it there.

But you aren't harmed at all by it being there. I'm not sure what the problem is.

 

[jmar]

But you aren't harmed at all by it being there. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Do you really not understand why one would want to make the decision about what is in their respective boxes?

For example...my Wife bought a POS Windows Vista lappy 2 years ago...we used it and I modded it to get the best use out of it as I could. But between all the nonsense that came pre-loaded, the Anti-Virus software the Geek Squad convinced her was necessary and the truth that Vista is almost as bad as Windows ME, I couldn't stand it anymore!

So I, because this PC does not lock me out of any version of any OS I choose to run, used a thumb drive with a Ubuntu installation (my friend had to set me up with it as my lappy was practically useless at that point; I had transferred all my files to my backup hard drive just in time mind you) to save my computer.

Yes I could have backed up and reinstalled a fresh version of Vista, or upgraded to Windows 7 but screw that.

Now I have a say over what is on my lappy. Now I choose the programs. Now I have control over something I own.

And that my friend is all the difference.

Thank you.

 

[saptech]

But you aren't harmed at all by it being there. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Majority of that software is trialware that last a few months then you either have to buy it or stop using it. That is part of the reason Windows machines get spyware/viruses/malware, etc on their machines. Either they don't know or care you have to pay to update your antivirus program after it expires or install a different one.

People that's not tech savvy don't know that. At least alot of people i've had to fix their computers.

 

[Satires]

Well, like the other conspiracy theories. I do believe this one though. I run linux exclusively now as my only computer! It's a learning curve but worth the time to re-learn. Linux is far more efficient, faster, secure (For now) and I don't experience any problems with it.

So what's next?

Will they make building your own computer illegal???

If not, then people had better learn how.

I do in fact see the bigger picture despite what I said in another thread. Money rules this world, bar none. You think they're trying to invade our privacy? I'm willing to bet that has already been happening full force years ago.

I see enough of the picture to tell me it's a waste of time. Let god sort it out.

I stood against the sopa act and called my senator, I do my part the best I can, I just don't become radical over the inevitable. It just is what it is.

I'll give a nickles worth of free advice, put your faith in man, and you will lose.

Put down the gaming consoles, turn off the televisions and look at life as logic, then take it from there.

 

[IOWA]

But you aren't harmed at all by it being there. I'm not sure what the problem is.

You can't be serious.

It's MY space. It's MY hard drive. It's MY hardware. Whether it's 1kb or 1 terabyte it doesn't matter, at all. Whether it lies dormant, or not, doesn't matter. Whether it is "harming" someone is not your decision.

Whether something is harmful or not to MY system is purely MY decision, not yours, and certainly not anyone else's.

Man, if I didn't know better I would say your deliberately taking the opposing side in several threads just to start conflict. I certainly hope not, sir.

EDIT: FYI, it does do harm, just by getting in my way. Having to navigate around clutter I don't even want is harmful to my user experience.