(moved posts) Is it ok to put out wireless tether info?

[gmenfan83]

I'm not a lawyer, but my work includes a lot of working with lawyers.

So - I'd first like to mention - isn't it true if you violate a contract that that's a civil matter?

If I'm right on that, then I'd like to call people back from the ledge of charging others with illegal activities - civil and criminal matters are different, are they not?

Any lawyers in the house, or decent students with a few law courses, or anyone else, want to comment on that idea?

I do know that there's quite a bit of common sense in the law - for example, it's ok to read the above like this:

While it's easy to believe what that means, I gotta ask as a non-lawyer - what does that mean?

Not to get off-topic, but seriously - they really make an assumption about the use of the word tether there.

We know what it means in the context of getting free internet - but the way that's worded - doesn't that mean that you can't even use apps like PlayOn (already shown to be legal for copyright purposes) and if I'm understanding "Wireless Sync" then it seems that contract might be on thin ice anyways.

Not trying to stir the pot, but I just think they're sure not making it easy for lay people to totally get all that might be implied there...

In any case, first point stands on its own merits - I don't think it's illegal to violate a contract. Immoral, probably, actionable, definitely - but not really illegal.

Open for corrections if I'm missing something.



Can't see any argument there.

see the past few posts from you and Binary have been good and informative and i appreciate that ,,,there was no slandering, bickering or hypocrisy involved,,

 

[ECFfighter7232]

I'm not saying that your wrong but I've flashed almost every Rom and haven't seen any that came with a tether apk, I think one did have the 3g hotspot with the hack but that's it. I haven't ran every version of every Rom but I have ran a few versions of every Rom except for maybe 2 or 3

im PRETTY SURE (read as I could be wrong and it wouldnt be the first time) atleast one if not all versions of apex had "wireless tether for root users"

edit: just checked my apex 1.4.1 zip on the computer, sure enough, wirelesstether.apk sitting right there in Fabolous_ApeX_V1_4_1.zip\system\app\

 

[C0n57an71n3]

I'm pretty sure Apex had it, too. Rubix might have, I can't remember.

It was packaged, yes. If it comes back, then it is up to the user to judge whether to use it or not.

 

[Kevmueller]

In any case, first point stands on its own merits - I don't think it's illegal to violate a contract. Immoral, probably, actionable, definitely - but not really illegal.

I think you are right on this. This just leaves the ball then in the carriers (Verizon's) court on what they want to do about it. Nothing as they have up until now. Void and cancel any contract where there is tethering is happen. Add the Hotspot charge to your monthly charges.

I don't think it would be good business to just void and cancel peoples contract. I could see them going to the charge for the Hotspot, not a great PR move, but I don't think anyone here would argue that they would be justified in doing that. I would also being willing to bet a call to Customer Service and if you had not been an abuser of this they would remove the charge the first month.

Just like with anything there have been some really good points made here. I am in the same boat as many where i had it for that rare case and used it twice when I was in a jam. However there have been some good points made here to why this should not even be done. I personally would love to see Verizon offer a day pass at like $2 a day for tethering.

 

[ECFfighter7232]

I personally would love to see Verizon offer a day pass at like $2 a day for tethering.

I'd like to see a $1.00 day pass. that way its still cheaper for those that use it all the time ($20 for a month instead of the $30 - $31 for every day use) but still very cheap for those that need it for an "emergency"

 

[eraursls1984]

im PRETTY SURE (read as I could be wrong and it wouldnt be the first time) atleast one if not all versions of apex had "wireless tether for root users"

edit: just checked my apex 1.4.1 zip on the computer, sure enough, wirelesstether.apk sitting right there in Fabolous_ApeX_V1_4_1.zip\system\app\

Is it in the folder of apk's you can add or is it automatically installed? I have ran ApeX and Liberty mainly and haven't seen it and don't have a backup of it in titanium backup which has like 15-20 backups of all the apps I've had, I alwo never ran ApeX V1.4 or V1.41 because of Liberty

 

[ECFfighter7232]

Is it in the folder of apk's you can add or is it automatically installed? I have ran ApeX and Liberty mainly and haven't seen it and don't have a backup of it in titanium backup which has like 15-20 backups of all the apps I've had, I alwo never ran ApeX V1.4 or V1.41 because of Liberty

no, it was automatically installed

 

[EarlyMon]

Just like with anything there have been some really good points made here. I am in the same boat as many where i had it for that rare case and used it twice when I was in a jam. However there have been some good points made here to why this should not even be done. I personally would love to see Verizon offer a day pass at like $2 a day for tethering.

I think intent come into play a lot here.

Entitlement, or the something-for-nothing, mentality: can't say I'm ok with that.

Need and common sense: not the same thing.

An example of hot-wiring a car was used - I didn't respond to it before because it was hyperbole - damaging physical property isn't the same thing as an emergency need of data services (and more - one is criminal and one is civil).

But even to the hyperbole - had I explained to Hertz that a life was on the line, I don't think they'd press charges.

So - I think in all things, intent is important.

Example - I can find no honorable intent in copyright infringement, nor in something-for-nothing mentality.

Neither can find against having an a service available for an emergency and never using it - or - suffering the consequences of its use.

I may come across like I know the answer - but I don't.

I think the question is honestly super-hard in some aspects.

 

[eraursls1984]

I'd like to see a $1.00 day pass. that way its still cheaper for those that use it all the time ($20 for a month instead of the $28 - $31 for every day use) but still very cheap for those that need it for an "emergency"

Fixed it for you

 

[Deleted User]

So, EarlyMon, I completely agree that intent is important and while the hot-wiring is hyperbole, it's not that far off in terms of a description. Okay, pretend we don't damage the car in the process - the point is that you are going in and taking something that you did not pay for, from a company that doesn't want you to have it, and can potentially deprive someone else of service in the process.

However, it's impossible to monitor intent here so I think, at some point, you either draw the hard line or don't. Really, I'm okay with both ways but it seems that this board tries very hard to stay on the good side of the line. Be nice all the time. No search nazis. Always be newbie-friendly. Do not discuss stealing apps or hacking ESNs or other such activities. So where is the line drawn? That's up to you moderators and where you think the policy of the board should be.

Is it ridiculous to argue that <10mb of usage in an emergency situation should be policed? Of course. Patently absurd. In the end, though, that is still a clear violation of your contract - and I think the board and the community need to choose if that's okay, or if it's not okay, since the grey area is impossible to define.

Given the number of people that I regularly see say dumb stuff like, "I consumed 23gb of data last month tethering," I guess my own personal feelings are that it's impossible to weed out the people who have an overblown sense of entitlement, so I personally am not going to help people with tethering issues.

 

[ECFfighter7232]

Fixed it for you

I left Feb out cause its the red headed step child of the year

 

[EarlyMon]

binary visions - I can only say that I don't pretend to have all of the answers.

I will share that mods have been discussing the morality of this for some time among ourselves. This situation may well move those discussions to the forefront.

Please believe my sincerity - I think it's a hard question. Were it not so, we'd have announced policy long ago, probably even before my time as a mod.

You may trust that these inputs will find their way into the right places for discussion.

I believe it's now time to trim this thread and move it into our suggestion box forum for wide visibility to the whole community, and to lock the remains of the original thread here.

I'll do this in a short while (being called away for a short bit) but I will do it today.

Please continue to discuss among yourself until I can return and move this as I've suggested.

 

[ECFfighter7232]

I'd like to see a $1.00 day pass. that way its still cheaper for those that use it all the time ($20 for a month instead of the $30 - $31 for every day use) but still very cheap for those that need it for an "emergency"

adding further thought to this...
they do this with the VZNav program. You can sign up for the unlimited use plan (I think 10 a month?) or you can do a 24 hour use of it and they add a couple bucks onto your service charge for the month. so I would think they could very easily implement a plan like this into the stock 3g hotspot apk

 

[eraursls1984]

adding further thought to this...
they do this with the VZNav program. You can sign up for the unlimited use plan (I think 10 a month?) or you can do a 24 hour use of it and they add a couple bucks onto your service charge for the month. so I would think they could very easily implement a plan like this into the stock 3g hotspot apk

I think that is $2-3 per day, so 3-4 days pays for a month. Also $20 a month is for 2gb, not unlimited, so I think if they did this it would be more like $3-5 a day for 100-200 mb

 

[ECFfighter7232]

I think that is $2-3 per day, so 3-4 days pays for a month. Also $20 a month is for 2gb, not unlimited, so I think if they did this it would be more like $3-5 a day for 100-200 mb

ah, thats true, I forgot it was limited to the 2gb....

edit: not every plan is perfect lol

 

[kevro_86]

I don't chime in too much on these boards, but I do appreciate all that I've learned from all of you by reading them.

I have been following the whole "Is tethering right or wrong" debate since I hacked my Motorla E815 to enable Bluetooth tethering many moons ago. (We used to call it "BT DUN") Then I used it on my LG Voyager. Ironically, I use less data now via tethering than I did back then because the browsers on the E815 & Voyager SUCKED, so I HAD to plug in the laptop. Now, most of that surfing I do right on my Droid X browser!

I kind of see the issue from both angles. If I have an unlimited data plan on Verizon (or any other carrier for that matter) their intent is clearly that the data be used by my cell phone and not by other devices using my cell phone as a wifi hotspot. People that are abusing it by using it as their home internet service should not feel entitled to that simply because they "pay for unlimited data". They are ASKING for trouble and really are what's helping bring down the rest of us!
Over the past few years I have used FREE BT or wifi tether sporadically. I might go months without using it at all...or at most, I might use it 6 or 7 times in a month...all for short spurts using very small amounts of data (kids will get online with their iPod Touch's to access sport scores or their SMS app so they can text while we're driving down I-90 for instance). I would estimate that the most data I've EVER used in a month from tethering is maybe 200MB, and that's probably an overstatement. Average per month over the last year is probably well under 20MB.

Now...with that type of usage, it would be insane for me to sign up for a $20/month tethering plan!

So, the way things are going, it appears like I will eventually have 2 choices:

1) Pay the $20 and tether to my heart's content, (even if I don't need or use it all that often)

or

2) Don't pay the $20 and stop all tethering...and not enjoy my phone to its fullest capabilities, or even to the fullest capabilities of the Android OS I am currently running.

If people are already paying $30 a month for "unlimited" data, then it's pretty understandable why they find it difficult to pay an additional $20 for the convenience of being able to tether a few times a month...even though most would gladly pay a more reasonable fee to do so.

Here are a couple tethering options Verizon should consider:

WIFI TETHER OPTION 1:
Like others have mentioned...add a REASONABLE option to pay ALA CARTE for tethering? They would have to make it FAIR....Example: Have a $1 access charge incurred once per day that wifi tether is used (100MB daily limit). If my kids get on it 7 times in a month, then go ahead and bill me the $7. Their tracking software could tally my tethers for the month and send the info to billing. That is FAIR...Unfortunately, FAIR isn't usually in Verizon's vocabulary. They probably want $10/day or $20/month...take it or leave it...forcing people that only use it sparingly to overpay.

Verizon is notorious for this. Remember the mandatory $10/month data fee for practically ALL of their phones (except a few crappy exceptions)? Or how about getting billed for $1.99 for accidently hitting the Get-It -Now button on a phone without a data plan and using a whopping 0.01MB of data. THAT is tantamount to stealing my friends...and Verizon even got their hands slapped by the FCC for it. If people actually consider my occasional MB or 2 of tethering to be stealing, so be it. I don't get the data for free....and I don't abuse the tethering (I've only gone over 5GB total data usage one time, and am usually between 3-4GB)...AND I AM willing to pay a REASONABLE amount for my light, occasional tethering.

WIFI TETHER OPTION 2:
Add a LIMITED data plan (not $50/month either!!!) that gives me 5GB of "We don't give a crap how you use it" data!!! Use it on your phone, tethered iPods, laptops, XBOX Live, etc. But when you hit 5GB, additional charges will apply. Again, this is something that could actually be construed as FAIR, and I don't think Verizon likes to play fair too often.
Either way, Verizon needs to rethink their tethering option plans, keeping in mind us light, occasional users as well as the heavy tether users. Hopefully they can come up with something that we can all feel good about in the end.

Sorry for being long-winded. I might not post often, but when I do...look out!! lol

Take Care!
Kevro

 

[yawdapaah]

+1 Kevro. I doubt that anyone here is naive enough not to recognize the illegality of tethering without a tethering plan. It's UNFAIR to ask anyone to pay $30 + $20 for unlimited data and LIMITED tethering. These carriers are r4ping us and there isn't much we can do about it.
I doubt they will do anything to change it cos there aren't too many options.

Tmobile and ATT recently started this as well right? I've heard that Sprint monitors tether users but I don't know how they are proceeding.

 

[dmiller2007]

Adding to the intent thing, I only used my wireless tether at my house when my desktop was needed as opposed to my phone (i used to play xbox on it but quit that a while back) and I don't have the mentality "unlimited interwebz by using my phone!", I CANNOT get internet service at my house, the service isn't offered. Satellite internet isn't financially reasonable and dial up is obsolete. The amount of flame I have received over this issue is ridiculous. I've never tethered a laptop, tablet, etc to my phone.

 

[EarlyMon]

Metfanant raised an interesting point - my accountant buddies would call it double-dipping:

your laptop is not an authorized user of Verizon's network...unless you pay for a tethering plan...and when you're tethering, now youre phone is using data...AND your laptop...adding more (unauthorized) strain on Verizon's network...

This next idea is just utopian thinking on my part - and is tangential to the topic of what's right - but honestly, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if the carriers offered some built-in tether that would:

• shut down phone data so only the one tethered device is running data
• limit and throttle it commensurate with extraordinary use

Again - it's just utopian thinking - but there are cases where it's needed and very hard to get some needed web references up before making a call or something not within normal use.

So - I side with the carriers not fostering something for nothing, but I wonder if there couldn't be some middle ground.

This would go away if they offered some ala carte tethering as mentioned earlier - per day or per hour I should think would satisfy a lot of people in extraordinary need situations. Not something you have to configure or add to your plan - you do it, you get charged extra, just like old-fashioned long-distance calls.

When some carrier's service improves at my house, I'm going with their modem thing or tethering plan and kissing DSL goodbye. (My 3G is already usually more reliable than my DSL, so I'll gladly pay for better.)

Meanwhile, I guess I'm just amplifying the point made earlier - if they offered more than a one size fits all plan, it might make adoption easier and everyone could win.

I can see the argument that the TOS is the end of the discussion. A contract is a contract and a deal is a deal, so honor the deal.

I can also see the validity of the question - if I don't abuse the system and don't double-dip, what difference does it make if I view a web page on a 4.3" screen or a 15" one?

Not saying or implying the contract is invalid by that question - just saying the question raises an interesting point that might lead to more palatable future contracts.

Please note: I am speaking here solely as an individual, not a representative of the forums, and I'm just thinking out loud.

And FWIW - it seems some time ago that I found Verizon offered a free wired tether, back in the day... don't recall the restrictions. Is my memory in error?

 

[Roze]

Either way, Verizon needs to rethink their tethering option plans, keeping in mind us light, occasional users as well as the heavy tether users. Hopefully they can come up with something that we can all feel good about in the end.

Roze's $0.02 on tethering & data plans:

I have always view the Canadian carriers backward compared to our US counterparts. We are stuck with 3 years contracts and our plans are quite expensive. I've always drooled and get a bit jealous when you guys post your phone plans on here, lol. I think it's because we have tiered data plans and that our data plan is expensive as hell that tethering is a part of our data contract if our data plan is more than 1GB a month. Of course after charging customers $30 for 1 GB or $60 for 5GB (robbery don't you think?), it would cause quite a riot if they charge us an additional $30 to use the expensive data we already paid for. But I think the carriers here got THIS one thing right at least.

I can understand Verizon having a tethering plan for their 'unlimited data' since if they don't then some people will abuse it (not that there aren't those that do already). But I don't understand AT&T, who also has tiered data plans and yet still charge an additional $20/month for a tethering plan. I've heard that Verizon will change to tier data plans over the summer, do you think they will follow the Canadian carriers' example of having the tethering as part of the data plan? I hope they do since I think this is the best answer. Your paid for your amount of data and you should use it however you like.

Roze signing off-

 

[ballisticn8]

Holy crap, are people really comparing using wifi tether to robbing a bank!??!?

Plain and simple its not illegal, everyone saying it is or comparing it to theft, robbery, etc, take a breath and calm down (or take some Xanax, Lorazepam, medicinal marijuana, etc).

Great, now count to five. Now exhale...

Simply put wireless tethering is not illegal its a breach of contract which has been pointed out above as being a civil matter. The worst thing the carrier can do is charge you for your data connection, cancel your contract due to the breach of contract since you are breaking their terms of service, then if they really wanted to they could take you to CIVIL court for said breach of contract.

Nothing about it is illegal... Stealing phones from the carriers because you bricked your phone trying to flash something to it and sent it back under warranty is illegal (IE fraud) but thats another topic entirely.

IMO Android Forums should leave the topics of wifi tether alone, its not illegal by any means and for those using said apps it is up to the carrier to identify and take action against the users violating their terms of service...

 

[Electrasol]

Not going to change my mind.

There's no difference between streaming videos (amazon prime members instant access) on my laptop than streaming it through my phone.

I paid for it and I'm going to use it. Thank you and have a good day.

-Long time lurker

 

[eraursls1984]

Wasn't my intention to put on the tough guy act so I apologize for that.

I honestly don't see the problem with wireless tether.

Please just explain to me why it is. I will be quiet and just continue to lurk.

Well your right that it uses the same amount of data to stream that BUT if your on a 3.7"-4.3" screen your not gonna watch a whole lot unless maybe your waiting for a short while for something while your out and about. If your on your pc with a much larger screen (possibly even a 50" tv or bigger) then your going to be inclined to watch more and use more data. They offer unlimited to the phone because they know that due to size most people won't use it a lot and the ones that do use it a lot (me, 5-10 gb a month) would use even more if it was as large and easy as a pc

 

[tom108]

Wasn't my intention to put on the tough guy act so I apologize for that.

I honestly don't see the problem with wireless tether.

Please just explain to me why it is. I will be quiet and just continue to lurk.

the only reason it is wrong is because it goes against your verizon contract if you are not paying for the service.

 

[rehpyc]

How about if you're using HDMI out to stream the video on your TV? Argument failed.

How many here pirate stuff from the internet (music, movies, games)?
How many here waste time on their job rather than doing what they're suppose to be doing?
How many here speed in their vehicles?
Yeah.