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Photon lcd screen.... Pentile or not?

Pentiles do use less energy than a standard RGB pattern will so it may be a way of getting better battery life out of the phones as that is a major complaint. Also readability in day light is something that is important to most people so it may have been used as a way to address that issue as well.

They use less energy because if you look at the surface area that the subpixels cover, it's less than a standard square matrix. In other words, the black space between subpixels is larger. That is where your power saving comes in, and that's also why we perceive the screendoor effect.

Which means a PenTile screen is less bright than a square matrix screen. You could compensate by increasing the max brightness of the sub-pixels, but that would nullify the power savings.

This is classic energy-balance. You can't have brighter AND more power saving, unless you've achieved a fundamental efficiency somewhere else, and in the case of PenTile, there's no difference in efficiency; only the reduction of subpixel size.

Take a look at my writeup a while back, which has pics showing PenTile RGBG magnified and how certain situations (solid colors on web sites, mobile apps, etc) really amplify the screen door effect:

http://androidforums.com/android-lo...lcd-vs-qhd-vs-retina-display.html#post2769351

*edit*
in that same thread, a few posts up, I referenced one of EarlyMon's posts, which is also really enlightening:

http://androidforums.com/android-lo...lcd-vs-qhd-vs-retina-display.html#post2768661
 
I don't believe that the power argument holds for pentile on LCD.

First, LCD is a permissive display technology - the backlight is always there and serves 1000 or 1,000,000 subpixels equally. Total brightness will relate to backlight power consumed first and foremost.

Second, each sub-pixel is an aperature, letting or preventing the backlight from flowing through and in turn from passing through polarized and/or colored overlays to give the subpixels their distinct colors. The aperture effect is caused by the LC material responding to a unique electric field applied at each subpixel at any point in time. The total field for a given screen size ought integrate to about the same power requirements whether you're adding up power for lots of little fields or adding up power for fewer slightly-larger little fields.

This explanation came about as part of the explanation for the pentile OLED approach, but I've found that there's so much myth mixed in with fact where displays are concerned that I don't know if it applies to the OLED case, either. Logically, if you presume some conversion process will take some amount of power to produce some amount of photons, it's not clear to me that the argument applies to OLED either.

Will 1/3 more (S)AMOLED(+) pixels require more power? Yes. But what happens when you do that? You've increased brightness if you leave all pixels at the previous power level. So - you'll turn down brightness.

Net effect is a balancing act.

I think personally that the meme that pentile saves power was used to sell people on the idea to conceal industrial secrets involving solving other technical issues.

This is all from back of the envelope estimates, so I could be quite wrong, but it certainly appears that pentile=power savings is an attempt to get a free energy lunch - and TANSTAAFL.

PS to novox77 - I'm intrigued by your idea that pentile savings come from mask area requiring less energy, but I can't buy it. I think that users will overcome total brightness loss due to subpixel masking with their brightness adjustment. The first reaction DLP owners noted with the apparent disappearance of subpixel masking altogether was to reduce brightness.


PPS - I've gone back to that post, referenced here, and am retracting my previous position. In the fullness of time, I don't think that I'd thought it out as well as I have since.
 
@EM's bloody long as post.

Pentile Matrix on OLED (ex, AMOLED) makes sense. Since each pixel can be turned on or off. Thus with pentile matrix and less sunpixels are being used, you end up saving power consumption. This is the only reason pentile matrix was (somewhat) accepted for phones like the Nexus One, Desire, Incredible and SGS series.

I still don't bloody understand why Motorola used it for an LCD screen, other than thats it is cheaper compared to the alternative. It's definitely not for power saving as LCD uses a black light, as EM stated.
 
I have been reading discussions about this, but I was wondering what DOES have a non-pentile and supposedly "better" display.

By the way, I have an "ancient" hero I got a whole 18months ago. I was comparing it to a co-workers EVO 4G, and man is it faster. Hard to imagine the current dual cores being nearly double again the speed.

But back nearly on topic, I notice that the EVO 4g's screen colors were really washed out compared to my old Hero. My Hero's screen is much smaller, and probably much lower resolution, but the colors were much more vibrant, and the photos on webpages much better, and again not washed out.

Any other comparisons/comments on this?
 
PenTile RGBW has a clear sub-pixel which transmits more backlight. That's why it's both more power efficient and brighter than traditional RGB LCD's. Links:

Technology

PenTile Blog

Motorola knows what they're doing using these displays. I'm all for more battery life and better daylight readability, and I'm glad the Photon 4G will have a PenTile RGBW display.
 
Brightness is a function of backlight.

The RGBW apertures between you and the backlight can only restrict or permit it.

They can do nothing to add to it.

That a quarter of the subpixels can permit white backlight - on those parts of the screen colored white - changes nothing.

It's all about the backlight when considering LCD brightness.
 
I have been reading discussions about this, but I was wondering what DOES have a non-pentile and supposedly "better" display.

By the way, I have an "ancient" hero I got a whole 18months ago. I was comparing it to a co-workers EVO 4G, and man is it faster. Hard to imagine the current dual cores being nearly double again the speed.

But back nearly on topic, I notice that the EVO 4g's screen colors were really washed out compared to my old Hero. My Hero's screen is much smaller, and probably much lower resolution, but the colors were much more vibrant, and the photos on webpages much better, and again not washed out.

Any other comparisons/comments on this?

The Evo 4G hit just as HTC had to switch away from Samsung as their AMOLED supplier and transition to LCD displays in their place.

Over the Evo's lifetime, it had 3 different LCD suppliers and 4 different touchscreens. The unit to unit variations are so great that no conclusions can be drawn. Mine was pretty good, I saw one sample more vibrant and you got one of the washed-out ones.

Nonsense like that on the part of the makers cause most of the controversy on this subject and nearly all of the conclusions drawn by so-called experts are flat wrong and defy common sense.

What do you do on a TV that appears washed out? Adjust the contrast. What if the colors are over-saturated? You adjust the color.

99% of the screen debates fostered by the makers with buzzwords above the understanding of all but the most technically inclined is there to hide that the emperor has no clothes.

It's cheaper to convince consumers that buzzwords matter and to stir up debate than it is to provide screen adjustments. Srsly? A color display with one adjustment.

In answer to your other question, the HTC Sensation and Evo 3D have rgb qHD displays. Properly working displays have much better white balance and better overall color than the Evo, and completely invisible 3d layer when used in 2d.

Lemons happen like crazy on any launch, so these have some conflicting reports, but few reviewers seem to get you can't judge a class using a sample of one.

The takeaway I'd offer is to hang together as a group and share info as your phones arrive. If someone reports a crappy display, and yours isn't, encourage them to replace their phone for one that's right.

Anyway, those are my opinions.

I think if anyone takes time to consider them, perhaps the common sense I hope is there will become apparent.

Sure hope this helps!

PS - Gamma at 2.2 pretty much gets you there to accurate color. My 3D is between 2,6 and 2.7, iow, a bit on the vibrant side. So vibrant has nothing to do with pentile or not. That's just a function of how they balanced the presets during screen design.
 
PenTile RGBW has a clear sub-pixel which transmits more backlight. That's why it's both more power efficient and brighter than traditional RGB LCD's.

Brightness is a function of backlight. The RGBW apertures between you and the backlight can only restrict or permit it. They can do nothing to add to it. That a quarter of the subpixels can permit white backlight - on those parts of the screen colored white - changes nothing.

Still, I see tbhausen's point. Early, I understand your position that the backlight controls the brightness and represents the max brightness, but the R, G and B "filters" do weaken the brightness at varying amounts.

For example: if you look at a black-and-white photo, obviously some parts are darker, and some parts are lighter. Yellows and greens are inherently brighter than blues and violets. On the digital side, the HSB (hue/saturation/brightness) methodology of representing color demonstrates this well. Yellows and greens at their most saturated have the highest brightness values.

So a clear pixel (the W in RGBW) would preserve the original brightness of the backlight more so than the RGB subpixels, which then compensates the brightness loss of the PenTile matrix. In other words, the whites aren't adding to the brightness, they are helping reduce the brightness-subtractive nature of the rest of the subpixels.

While I find that a creative solution to the brightness problem, the image clarity problem still exists. Here's what PenTile RGBW looks like:

rgb-v-rgbw-circle-chart.png


Each pixel is made up of 2 subpixels. According to this image, a standalone pixel can either be light blue (combo of blue + white) and yellow (combo of red + green). That's not so great for colors like cyan and magenta (no relationship of red+blue or blue+green in a given pixel. Whereas in traditional RGB square/stripe, all 3 primary colors are present in a single pixel, so each pixel can represent ANY color.

Therein lies the disadvantage of PenTile RGBW. For certain shades, you need more than 1 pixel to represent a given color, and that is a loss in resolving power (resolution in the classic sense).

Furthermore, RGBW shares a disadvantage with RGBG in that subpixels of the same hue are now farther apart from each other. That means that the screen door effect for large areas of solid colors (common on web sites and app UI elements) will be amplified.
 
PenTile RGBW has a clear sub-pixel which transmits more backlight. That's why it's both more power efficient and brighter than traditional RGB LCD's. Links:

Technology

PenTile Blog

Motorola knows what they're doing using these displays. I'm all for more battery life and better daylight readability, and I'm glad the Photon 4G will have a PenTile RGBW display.

Thanks for the read.

@Novox, thanks for the dumb down explanation, lol.
 
So a clear pixel (the W in RGBW) would preserve the original brightness of the backlight more so than the RGB subpixels, which then compensates the brightness loss of the PenTile matrix. In other words, the whites aren't adding to the brightness, they are helping reduce the brightness-subtractive nature of the rest of the subpixels.

While I find that a creative solution to the brightness problem, the image clarity problem still exists. Here's what PenTile RGBW looks like:

rgb-v-rgbw-circle-chart.png


Each pixel is made up of 2 subpixels. According to this image, a standalone pixel can either be light blue (combo of blue + white) and yellow (combo of red + green). That's not so great for colors like cyan and magenta (no relationship of red+blue or blue+green in a given pixel. Whereas in traditional RGB square/stripe, all 3 primary colors are present in a single pixel, so each pixel can represent ANY color.

Therein lies the disadvantage of PenTile RGBW. For certain shades, you need more than 1 pixel to represent a given color, and that is a loss in resolving power (resolution in the classic sense).

Furthermore, RGBW shares a disadvantage with RGBG in that subpixels of the same hue are now farther apart from each other. That means that the screen door effect for large areas of solid colors (common on web sites and app UI elements) will be amplified.

I am glad that folks are discussing PenTile technology in depth. Full Disclosure Statement: I am the CEO of Nouvoyance, the developer of PenTile Technology.

But please allow me to correct a couple points from above. First, while incorporating the W (white, actually clear, filterless) subpixel is part of the improved energy efficiency gain over RGB Stripe LCDs, the reduction of the number of subpixels from a fixed three per pixel, to only two per pixel (on average) is also part of the improvement, a very significant part. This is because the amount of wasted space from the regions between subpixels is reduced. Between subpixels their is a "black matrix" that blocks light. It is important to block the light in the borders because otherwise it would leak light when trying to make dark colors and black. The width of these boarder areas is fixed; Thus, as the subpixel density (resolution before subpixel rendering) goes up, the aperture ratio, the ratio of light transmitting area to the light blocking area, decreases rapidly towards zero. In high resolution panels, this loss of aperture ratio is very high, thus reducing the subpixel density, as PenTile does, greatly improves the aperture ratio. Thus, the W subpixel is not trying to compensate "the brightness loss of the PenTile matrix", is is adding to an already improved transmissivity of the panel. The combination of the two effects, at the resolution of todays smart phone panels, is to approximately double the light transmissivity of the panel.

With increased light transmissivity, one can choose to lower the power of the backlight for the same brightness as seen by the viewer, or increase the brightness for the same power.

For OLEDs, the same issue of black boarder to emissive area occurs. But in this case, it is known as "Fill factor". PenTile RGBG reduces the wasted area to the black boarder, increasing the fill factor. This means that the panel, for a given absolute max brightness of OLED material, can be brighter. It also means that for a given fixed brightness, the current density, the amount of power per illuminated OLED material, decreases. This reduction in current density increases the lifetime of the material (the amount of time in use before it begins to fade and change color) making a high resolution OLED panel practical for real products.

The second point I wish to clarify is that for PenTile panels, a pixel is NOT represented by just two subpixels. Instead, incoming pixel data is first converted from RGB to RGBW, then subpixel rendered, mapped, using varying levels of intensity, such that the impression on the Human Vision System is nearly the same as for the RGB system. If in a given image, we were to change the value (color and or brightness) of a single pixel, from one to up to ten subpixels values on the PenTile panel may be changed, depending on the the color of both the changed pixel and its surrounding pixels. The human eye always compares and blends colors between "pixels", over a certain area, depending on the colors. Thus, luminance resolution is maintained...

...but the commenter I quoted here is correct, the color, but not the lumimance, resolution is reduced, but only in the diagonal direction, and only by a small amount. But this is OK, since the human eye has much lower resolution in pure color than in luminance. The limit of resolving power for the human vision system (HVS) is 30-60 cycles per degree in luminance, 6-8 cycles per degree in the red/green color axis, and 3-4 cycles per degree in the yellow/blue color axis. Today's smart phones are presenting information at about 25-30 cycles per degree. So, reducing the color resolution by a small amount is "OK".

The final comment is absolutely true, the distance between the same color subpixel is increased, compared to an RGB Stripe panel, and "pattern visibility", called the "screen-door" effect here, may occur for solid colors. This is one reason why PenTile technology is only recommended for higher resolutions. As displays continue to be spec'ed at yet higher resolutions, this effect will become less of an issue.
 
DisplayGeek, thanks for your insightful post and your willingness to reach out and help our community here understand.

If you have time, I would appreciate it if you would clear some confusion I have in understanding your first point and how your display works.

Taking the case of an all white screen as the degenerate case, on a typical rgb LCD screen, all subpixels would be open. Would the same be true of the RGBW PenTile display?

What about a pure red field as the second degenerate case? In the case of an rgb LCD screen, 2/3 of the subpixels would be dark, on yours, 3/4.

Is the statement about aperture ratio all there is to the story of screen brightness?

I intend no traps or disrespect, and I am simply and honestly trying to ensure that I understand your statement as it applies to typical use cases.

The width of these boarder areas is fixed; Thus, as the subpixel density (resolution before subpixel rendering) goes up, the aperture ratio, the ratio of light transmitting area to the light blocking area, decreases rapidly towards zero.

The width is fixed for a given display technology and masking for control wiring, it is not fixed absolutely. So far as I know, it is fixed for any vendor of panel for any given generation. (Disclosure, I've served the semiconductor industry's leading test solution provider as the Director of R&D for quite some time.)

Sony and Sharp have both shown in recent years that they've been able to dramatically improve aperture ratio with their present offerings, and this is supported by advances in photolithography equipment used in panel manufacturing.
 
Actually, Samsung purchased the assets of Clairvoyante (the original developer of the technology) in 2008:

About Nouvoyance

It's a bit amusing when Samsung is compared to one of Samsung's partners while discussing the pro's and con's of competing display technologies ;)

Maybe that's a great sign for the future? Combining the best of Samsung screens with the positive aspects of pentile screens?

Again, this isn't a huge factor for me as long as the screen looks clear when I am looking at my phone or in daylight viewing.

If the photon is as good or hopefully better than the EVO 4G, then I'll be completely satisfied.
 
If you have time, I would appreciate it if you would clear some confusion I have in understanding your first point and how your display works.

Taking the case of an all white screen as the degenerate case, on a typical rgb LCD screen, all subpixels would be open. Would the same be true of the RGBW PenTile display?

The PenTile RGBW system uses Dynamic BackLight Control (DBLC) which adjusts the backlight brightess to the needs of the image to be shown. For the case mentioned, with pure white field, the backlight is set to 50% brightness and the LCD, all four channels, is set to 100% transmissivity.

What about a pure red field as the second degenerate case? In the case of an rgb LCD screen, 2/3 of the subpixels would be dark, on yours, 3/4.

Here, you are correct, for a pure red field, the light is passing through only 1/4 of the area, but aperature ratio is 50% higher, so the light transmissivity is 50% higher... which makes it the very same as the RGB color transmissivity... but that is not enough to maintain the relative brightness with the higher brightness of the W subpixel, so, in addition, the backlight power is increased to compensate, using DBLC, maintaining the correct color. If you want the deep techie details on this system, please review our patent:

United States Patent: 7592996

Is the statement about aperture ratio all there is to the story of screen brightness?

No... Along with the increased transmissivity due to the W subpixel increasing the measured values, there is also the issue of "percieved brightness" which can be affected by the contrast of the screen. There too, the reduction of the number of subpixels has a benificial effect of increasing the contrast of the panel, which in turn makes the panel appear to be "brighter". This improvement is discussed on our blog:

PenTile RGBW - Why it has Higher Contrast | PenTile Blog

At our blog, Joel Pollack, our Exec. VP, has added his comments regarding the above issue of increased transmissivity:

Why PenTile RGBW Improves LCD Efficiency | PenTile Blog

Answering other questions:

Yes, I'm Candice Brown Elliott

I founded Clairvoyante in 2000. Samsung aquired all rights to the original Clairvoyante developed PenTile technology in March of 2008. Nouvoyance was founded simultaneously to continue to support and develop the technology in close partnership with Samsung. PenTile panels in the market today are Samsung panels. Enquiries concerning licensing PenTile technology should be directed to Samsung, though we can make the introductions if desired.:)
 
The PenTile RGBW system uses Dynamic BackLight Control (DBLC) which adjusts the backlight brightess to the needs of the image to be shown. For the case mentioned, with pure white field, the backlight is set to 50% brightness and the LCD, all four channels, is set to 100% transmissivity.



Here, you are correct, for a pure red field, the light is passing through only 1/4 of the area, but aperature ratio is 50% higher, so the light transmissivity is 50% higher... which makes it the very same as the RGB color transmissivity... but that is not enough to maintain the relative brightness with the higher brightness of the W subpixel, so, in addition, the backlight power is increased to compensate, using DBLC, maintaining the correct color. If you want the deep techie details on this system, please review our patent:

United States Patent: 7592996



No... Along with the increased transmissivity due to the W subpixel increasing the measured values, there is also the issue of "percieved brightness" which can be affected by the contrast of the screen. There too, the reduction of the number of subpixels has a benificial effect of increasing the contrast of the panel, which in turn makes the panel appear to be "brighter". This improvement is discussed on our blog:

PenTile RGBW - Why it has Higher Contrast | PenTile Blog

At our blog, Joel Pollack, our Exec. VP, has added his comments regarding the above issue of increased transmissivity:

Why PenTile RGBW Improves LCD Efficiency | PenTile Blog

Answering other questions:

Yes, I'm Candice Brown Elliott

I founded Clairvoyante in 2000. Samsung aquired all rights to the original Clairvoyante developed PenTile technology in March of 2008. Nouvoyance was founded simultaneously to continue to support and develop the technology in close partnership with Samsung. PenTile panels in the market today are Samsung panels. Enquiries concerning licensing PenTile technology should be directed to Samsung, though we can make the introductions if desired.:)

Candice, all your clarifications regarding PenTile technology have been incredible! Although, I must say, some of the information is going way over my head.

Ultimately, despite all the negative reviews of the PenTile displays on smartphones, I actually think they look just fine for smartphone use. As any technology, I'm sure you are taking in user feedback, as well as reviews on the screens, just to make it even better in the future.

Again, I just want to extend extra thanks for contributing the information that you've provided thus far.
 
the main difference i noticed in the Photons screen vs my Evo 4G and 3D, was when it was off and you held it at the right angle, you could see squares beneath the glass, almost gridlike. i dont know if this is what makes it Pentile or not, but it was something that i noticed but only when the screen was off. i just looked at my girlfriends Droid 2 and it didnt have a screen like the Photon.
 
Dear Ms. Brown Elliott:

Again, thanks for your participation here. It certainly says all the right things about your company. I know from personal experience that it's difficult to discuss one's own company's technology without coming across as a propogandist, however you succeed admirably.
 
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