Postal Service Discussion

[byteware]

But your getting cheap mail service, or benefits when you get injured and can't work.

And that artificially cheap mail service is driving cheap mail service out of existence.

And no one will get ANY benefits after 2037 when the system collapses.

I see the USPS as being set up for communications welfare. They when "off budget" in the 70's as a way to be self sustaining, but the declining demand for their services has put them in financial troubles. Before rescuing the USPS by getting it into more things, we have to ask, do we still need communications welfare?

Or better yet... is there still a communications void that needs filling?

 

[nlsme]

They have an 80b dollar budget. After 30 years they are 15b in the whole. 15b is a RELATIVELY small number. And, I dont kbow why you think the demand is fallubg off a cliff. In 2020, they are projected to still deliver 150 b items. Less then their peak(wich was ONLY 4 years ago[email was widely adopted before this btw]))of 218 b pieces.

I'm sorry, their ending balance for 2010 was -$13.873 Billion, and that was WITH the $3.087 Billion they received in Taxpayer Funds.

That's insolvent. If they weren't a government agency, they would be chopped up and sold in bankruptcy.



Right, so losing 8 billion a year, and having a negative 13 billion dollar balance doesn't make them a failure. Gotcha.




No, the fact that people aren't using them enough to cover their costs makes them obsolete.

 

[3devious]

If my division overran our budget by almost 20%, it would be dissolved. It isn't just the Postal Service that needs a timeout. I want to puke everytime someone says "well at least we aren't wasting as much money as the XXXX" everytime a department is cornered into spending more than it should.

Even when I look at what percentage I am paying of every dollar we waste though it only adds up to a little bit out of my pocket, I want to hurt someone. We have really lost control. Fixing the USPS may not get us a lot of return in the grand scheme of things, but we really should actually practice some of the fiscal responsibility we are preaching.

We need to stop enabling agencies that are failing and living in denial. Let's stop relying on history and admit there's a big problem and not make this mistake again in another government program.

I want this country to stop coddling our agencies so that the people who blindly defend them don't exacerbate the problem.

 

[nlsme]

Yes, 15b is a big issue. And yes their revenue is declining. They can, and will raise their rates. They can and will continue to cut costs. History is important. It tends to repeat itself. But, Im pretty sure the arguement that the usps is a failure isn't new.

 

[byteware]

Yes, 15b is a big issue. And yes their revenue is declining. They can, and will raise their rates. They can and will continue to cut costs. History is important. It tends to repeat itself. But, Im pretty sure the arguement that the usps is a failure isn't new.

13B in the red is a HUGE issue, and their losses are expected to be even bigger this year, which will put them over $20 Billion in the red (their losses last year were only $8 Billion).

You are right about their overall projections, but they make their money from the First Class mail, and that's set to be about half or less of what they delivered in 2009 (You know, the year they lost a LOT of money).

 

[nlsme]

So, they will raise rates. Like they have for 200+ years.

 

[Bob Maxey]

So, they will raise rates. Like they have for 200+ years.

Perhaps you should compare the cost of a postage stamp (we will call it First Class) from early in our history to the cost of a stamp today.

You can go back to 1855 where the cost was one cent for the first 3,000 miles. Do a little research and see what a penny would buy in those days and the current first class postal rates represents quite a bargain.

But, if you send lots of mail, there are the Forever Stamps. They help you avoid all future postage increases for first class mail. What other service -government or not- will offer you a way to hold rates forever?

The mailman picks up your letter for free when he brings you free shipping supplies you ordered for free then hand delivers it to the post office (mostly) where it is sorted, put on a bus or plane, and hand delivered to the recipient.

I hate rate increases but when viewed in historical context, what a helluva bargain.

Here are some rates from 1792:

6c less than 30 miles
8c 30-60 miles
10c 60-100 miles
12 1/2c 100-150 miles
15c 150-200 miles
17c 200-250 miles
20c 250-350 miles
22c 350-450 miles
25c more than 450 miles

Twenty five cents would buy lots of stuff in 1792

Bob Maxey
Android Forum's Self-Proclaimed Official Philatelist

 

[copestag]

well to be honest if youre going to compare rates from 1792 then you should put EVERYTHING into historical context.....

yes 25 cents would buy a lot of stuff in 1792..... but 450 miles was like flying to the moon in 1792 also

 

[mdram]

Perhaps you should compare the cost of a postage stamp (we will call it First Class) from early in our history to the cost of a stamp today.

You can go back to 1855 where the cost was one cent for the first 3,000 miles. Do a little research and see what a penny would buy in those days and the current first class postal rates represents quite a bargain.

But, if you send lots of mail, there are the Forever Stamps. They help you avoid all future postage increases for first class mail. What other service -government or not- will offer you a way to hold rates forever?

The mailman picks up your letter for free when he brings you free shipping supplies you ordered for free then hand delivers it to the post office (mostly) where it is sorted, put on a bus or plane, and hand delivered to the recipient.

I hate rate increases but when viewed in historical context, what a helluva bargain.

Here are some rates from 1792:

6c less than 30 miles
8c 30-60 miles
10c 60-100 miles
12 1/2c 100-150 miles
15c 150-200 miles
17c 200-250 miles
20c 250-350 miles
22c 350-450 miles
25c more than 450 miles

Twenty five cents would buy lots of stuff in 1792

Bob Maxey
Android Forum's Self-Proclaimed Official Philatelist

i laready suggested charging mor for longer distances, but was told its not fair

 

[nlsme]

Never said it wasnt fair. Just pointed out, that to me, the mail IS infrastructure. Some people use ALL infrastructure more, while paying the same. Your commute costs more, yet you dont pay more. Your kids schooling costs more, yet your neighbor has the same bill.

 

[nlsme]

I also just want to point out, the 1792 rates consistently fell. By 1885, the price was 2 cents, regardless of distance.

 

[byteware]

I also just want to point out, the 1792 rates consistently fell. By 1885, the price was 2 cents, regardless of distance.

I also just want to point out, that regardless of the price of mail in 1792... the USPS is projected to be over $20 Billion in the hole by the end of this fiscal year, and that's not getting any better either.

 

[nlsme]

I also just want to point out, that regardless of the price of mail in 1792... the USPS is projected to be over $20 Billion in the hole by the end of this fiscal year, and that's not getting any better either.

IF NOTHING IS DONE. I think you are obtuse on purpose. And, AGAIN that is a small number after thirty years of their budget. I wonder how many biilions are spent annually on roads. On education. Im am seriously done with you. All you have is 4 bad years(that happwn to allign perfectly with the economic downturn experianced by everone), and you cry failure. Get over it.

 

[3devious]

Perhaps you should not have titled this post "Postal Service Discussion."

"The Postal Service is a Shining Example of Government and if You Say Otherwise, I am Done with You" might have been a better title.

 

[nlsme]

Perhaps you should not have titled this post "Postal Service Discussion."

"The Postal Service is a Shining Example of Government and if You Say Otherwise, I am Done with You" might have been a better title.

No, I didnt make the thread, I didnt title it. Im done with him, because he is unable to bring anything new to the table. The budget defficit has been addressed. Over and over again. It has been shown a small increase in rates will correct it. Hence the repeated referances to the numerous times they have done just that.

 

[nlsme]

Heck, they have even done it in reverse. When rates were higher then they needed to be, they lowered them. Another example of them doing it right.

 

[byteware]

IF NOTHING IS DONE. I think you are obtuse on purpose.

They've been running these deficits for years, and nothing HAS been done.

And, AGAIN that is a small number after thirty years of their budget.

Let me get this straight... they are projected to be in the red a THIRD of their operating budget, and that's a small number? They are projected to have a lose more than $10 Billion this year. Bringing their deficit up to $23 Billion.

I wonder how many biilions are spent annually on roads. On education. Im am seriously done with you.

Your defense is... it's not a failure, see, other programs fail worse?

All you have is 4 bad years(that happwn to allign perfectly with the economic downturn experianced by everone), and you cry failure. Get over it.

Except, the economy is recovering and the USPS's losses are growing larger. That's not aligned perfectly. That's when it should be obvious that this isn't just the economy, this is something more.

You like to use the economic downturn as an excuse... but it's just that, an excuse.

 

[byteware]

Heck, they have even done it in reverse. When rates were higher then they needed to be, they lowered them. Another example of them doing it right.

I'll agree that lowering rates that were too high is an example of making a right decision, but the USPS didn't make that decision. Congress did. The USPS cannot raise or lower rates, Congress does that.

 

[nlsme]

But something WILL be done. Jusr as it ALWAYS has. Id like a link to this years projected loss. My source doesnt touch 10b. And yes the 20 billion is a small number. Its from more then one year, of 50-60-70 billion dollar budgets. Its less then 5 percent. Bringing the rate up to 50 cents would clear this defficit IN ONE YEAR.

They've been running these deficits for years, and nothing HAS been done.



Let me get this straight... they are projected to be in the red a THIRD of their operating budget, and that's a small number? They are projected to have a lose more than $10 Billion this year. Bringing their deficit up to $23 Billion.



Your defense is... it's not a failure, see, other programs fail worse?



Except, the economy is recovering and the USPS's losses are growing larger. That's not aligned perfectly. That's when it should be obvious that this isn't just the economy, this is something more.

You like to use the economic downturn as an excuse... but it's just that, an excuse.

 

[nlsme]

Hence the term, " what the GOVERNMENT does right"!

I'll agree that lowering rates that were too high is an example of making a right decision, but the USPS didn't make that decision. Congress did. The USPS cannot raise or lower rates, Congress does that.

 

[3devious]

No, I didnt make the thread, I didnt title it. Im done with him, because he is unable to bring anything new to the table. The budget defficit has been addressed. Over and over again. It has been shown a small increase in rates will correct it. Hence the repeated referances to the numerous times they have done just that.

What!? You're the orignial poster. You did make and title the thread unless some mod/admin magic happened. *casts a sideways glance at Slug*

I would blame Phases because it's fun but I haven't seen him since I've started reading this site again.

That said, I'm glad that you participate in this site as heavily as you are even though my views are diametrically opposed to yours. Contention makes me want to understand an issue better or at least understand what is so annoying.

 

[byteware]

Hence the term, " what the GOVERNMENT does right"!

The best GOVERNMENT can do... doesn't equal, " what the GOVERNMENT does right".

 

[byteware]

What!? You're the orignial poster. You did make and title the thread unless some mod/admin magic happened. *casts a sideways glance at Slug*

I would blame Phases because it's fun but I haven't seen him since I've started reading this site again.

That said, I'm glad that you participate in this site as heavily as you are even though my views are diametrically opposed to yours. Contention makes me want to understand an issue better or at least understand what is so annoying.

This was a discussion from another thread that was cut out with a scalpel and another thread was created. A mod actually started this thread.

 

[nlsme]

That they are a shining example of what the government does right. Providing a vital service to ALL Americans, at universal rates. With no(or minimal appearantly[they lie, so I need my facts straight, or it is unfounded]) cost to the taxpayer.

Can you see any validity to this statement?

 

[nlsme]

The best GOVERNMENT can do... doesn't equal, " what the GOVERNMENT does right".

I know we disagree there. I posted that because of your post admitting that was something done right. You had to clarify that was congress, and not the usps. I had to clarify I said government all along.