• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

Proof that the Democrats are Socialists

Status
Not open for further replies.
FreakyLocz14 said:
Taxing those businesses won't stop them from outsourcing. It's still so much cheaper in China, and it will be more so if we raise taxes on the wealthy in order to spread the wealth around, that they'll easily pay your taxes and outsource even more. More tax revenue and a lot less jobs available? Great!
Click to expand...

I am not sure how you can say that it will still be cheaper in China. All one must do is impose a tax such that anything outsourced literally costs more than paying people on US soil. It won't be cheaper in China because the tax would make up more of the difference.

If on average, Chinese labor is $1/hr and US labor is $10 an hour (just using these numbers for easy calculations), all that needs to happen is tax outsourced chinese labor such that it is costing the corporation >$10 an hour. Simple math. Simple logic.
 
EarlyMon said:
The students.

The purpose of exams is to give a student feedback on their mastery of the material and the purpose of grading statistics is to give the instructor feedback on their transmittal of that mastery.

Better teachers structure exams that so that they can't be gamed - multiple versions are but one single way to help accomplish that.

Ultimately - when the students are cheated, or encouraged to cheat themselves, society as a whole suffers.

Students don't stay students forever, but the way they learn to problem-solve will follow them all of their lives.

Look at the fuzzy thinking in politicians and decision-makers today to see the effect of poor students and teachers.
Click to expand...

To some extent I agree. On the other hand, a well-written exam really isn't that difficult to produce, assuming the instructor actually gives a damn about their class (I have had many that just wanted grants, and threw us true false questions in a 500 level class...) Again, in the event that students do pass on information, a curve can easily be implemented. This puts students in the earlier session at no more of a disadvantage than the students in the later class. Plenty of instructors also curve exams by semesters and years (comparing this exam to last semesters exam, to last year's exam, etc.) Another option is for the instructor to provide old exams, which is incredibly common. Generally questions and ideas are simply re-written through the years such that there is no advantage asking "what was on the test" because you already know what will be.

Also, if you somehow got through school by "cheating" in this manner, it is going to be pretty damn obvious to any future employer. You can get straight A's through everything, but if you don't know what the heck you are talking about when it comes time to apply the knowledge, your A's did you no good.

I can certainly go on and on, but I don't feel I am going in the right direction for this thread anyway.
 
EarlyMon said:
Simple math doesn't work. Labor is a pre-tax operating expense - loopholes always exist for taxes.
Click to expand...
Ok. Replace the word tax, with fines. Use outsourced labor? We fine you. It's people trying to over complicate things that allows this sort of activity to happen in the first place.
 
Economic practices like that started in the 70s, when we didn't respond properly to the Japanese onslaught of new cars. They were quickly refined until we lost industry and had the rustbelt migration to the Southwest.

That idea got wrestled often over the years - the counterpoint - I think - was NAFTA in part.

Example why it can't work - you impose fines on outsourced labor. Ok. I move to that country, set up shop and charge you for a consulting service on labor practices - and I include free labor on whatever you want to study building.

It's a moving target.
 
I don't see how that is the same thing that I am suggesting... I am referring to "punishing" American-based business that send all their labor overseas. How is that the same as Japanese car makers selling their products here?
 
Please read my edit for the example of how to get around your scheme.

It's not simple math or simple logic - what you suggest cannot be implemented, and attempts to do so have unintended consequences.

Maybe good idea to study up on how Japanese cars came into being, and what the results were of those unintended consequences over the decades.

Besides - look at tech. Labor isn't outsourced. The companies go multi-national, and production is distributed.

I seem to recall riots over multi-national corp agreements. Got nowhere.
 
I respect your opinions and knowledge, so I will look into that.

It seems like the general feeling here is that we are doomed to slowly becoming consumed by outsourced labor.

Still, I hear why all of my ideas wouldn't work (from multiple people), which is fine. So educate me guys. What can be done? I refuse to believe we are doomed.
 
If there were less ways to move tax liabilities off shore, you'd have somewhat less outsourcing of labour (a lot of what's an excuse to move taxes)

My big hope is that countries like China, Malaysia, and in the long run Vietnam become developed, right now they are attractive low cost, reasonably skilled labour

As for countries like India, Indonesia... ultimately they will be held back by their education system and will stick to making shoes
 
shadowninty said:
As for countries like India, Indonesia... ultimately they will be held back by their education system and will stick to making shoes
Click to expand...

Are you joking? Do you have any idea of the contributions of Indians in all areas of our higher tech? Do you not understand that those Ph.D.s leading industries are sending their money back to their families and spiraling their education upwards? Are you unaware of the importance that Indian families instill in their children in the importance of education and job training? (not redundant)

I've had the honor of working with MANY Indians - hard to find a harder working, dedicated, overall more intelligent bunch, I'll say that right out.

High tech was once made in Japan - then Taiwan - then China - follow the line - in no time, a lot of your better stuff will be coming from India.

~~~~~

LOTR - If I had the answers, I'd give them. For now, I can only comment that innovation always succeeds at revealing what most of the practiced economic theories fail to foretell.
 
Not looking for answers (if a black and white existed I am sure we would have implemented it by now, right?). Mere suggestions would be nice. It's easy to tell someone they are wrong (this is a general statement, not directed towards you, or anyone in particular).

Anyway, I am not afraid to stick my neck out there. What about great tax incentives for products and services produced/provided solely from America? That means all customers support, all physical products and resources come right from the good old USA?
 
EarlyMon said:
Are you joking? Do you have any idea of the contributions of Indians in all areas of our higher tech? Do you not understand that those Ph.D.s leading industries are sending their money back to their families and spiraling their education upwards? Are you unaware of the importance that Indian families instill in their children in the importance of education and job training? (not redundant)
Click to expand...

(I know lots of Indians from Symbian forums)

I was reffering to manafacturing - Indias education system is only decent for the middle (and ofc upper) class

I know lots of them who are studying in software engineering etc, but where will they get people to manafacture complicated things? that is what i am reffering too

Their education system could be so much better, however it isnt, and in the future it will not progress much further and it will be only the small middle class growing the economy


India has much, much more problems then China, and unlike China, does not have the political will to get anywhere
 
lordofthereef said:
I am not sure how you can say that it will still be cheaper in China. All one must do is impose a tax such that anything outsourced literally costs more than paying people on US soil. It won't be cheaper in China because the tax would make up more of the difference.

If on average, Chinese labor is $1/hr and US labor is $10 an hour (just using these numbers for easy calculations), all that needs to happen is tax outsourced chinese labor such that it is costing the corporation >$10 an hour. Simple math. Simple logic.
Click to expand...

What will happen then? The company might shutdown completely. Not to mention that they can use their money to influence people in Washington. Your idealist views are not realistic.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
What will happen then? The company might shutdown completely.
Click to expand...
I am not against a company having to shut down if it relies on outsourcing to stay afloat. Not one bit.
Not to mention that they can use their money to influence people in Washington. Your idealist views are not realistic.
Click to expand...
This isn't SUPPOSED to be the case. That is a whole other beast as influencing Washington doesn't begin or end with outsourcing laws/regulation. Not by a long shot.
 
lordofthereef said:
This isn't SUPPOSED to be the case. That is a whole other beast as influencing Washington doesn't begin or end with outsourcing laws/regulation. Not by a long shot.
Click to expand...

The Supreme Court seems to believe that since a corporation is treated as an individual under federal law, they are entitled to all of the same 1st Amendment rights that individual people are in regards to influencing politics. This includes lobbying elected officials, promoting them on the campaign trail, donating to their campaigns, and running campaign ads on their behalf. Read the decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
The Supreme Court seems to believe that since a corporation is treated as an individual under federal law, they are entitled to all of the same 1st Amendment rights that individual people are in regards to influencing politics. This includes lobbying elected officials, promoting them on the campaign trail, donating to their campaigns, and running campaign ads on their behalf. Read the decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant. Anyone can fund lobbying, etc. They aren't supposed to BUY that person. Does it happen? Yes. Can we stop it? I don't see how. But funding a person or a group SHOULDN'T (though it does) make him your pocket pet.

I can go on and on about how ridiculous it is that money is what buys elections (or the eligibility for gullible Americans to consider you in an election), but that is for another thread.
 
lordofthereef said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant. Anyone can fund lobbying, etc. They aren't supposed to BUY that person. Does it happen? Yes. Can we stop it? I don't see how. But funding a person or a group SHOULDN'T (though it does) make him your pocket pet.

I can go on and on about how ridiculous it is that money is what buys elections (or the eligibility for gullible Americans to consider you in an election), but that is for another thread.
Click to expand...

That case specifically dealt with corporations running ads to promote a candidate that they like or to attack a candidate that they don't like. It also said that they can donate money to a candidate's campaign, or to a political action committee, in the same fashion that you or I can.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
That case specifically dealt with corporations running ads to promote a candidate that they like or to attack a candidate that they don't like. It also said that they can donate money to a candidate's campaign, or to a political action committee, in the same fashion that you or I can.
Click to expand...
Which is fine. Then we have no disagreement on the matter it seems.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom