Repercussions of court ruling against F.C.C. and Net Neutrality

[kamk2k8]

It seems like what's being said is if a utility can exist in any form without the government; then the government shouldn't be involved at all

Take for example a water metaphor: say we live in a desert the size of the United States, and somewhere in that desert there is an underground reservoir of water.

Just because we could theoretically have equal access to the water doesn't mean that it's practical or probable when C.R.E.A.M.

Authorities protecting our liberties is not the same as that famous Ben Franklin quote about sacrificing liberties for protection

 

[kamk2k8]

OK, this is only pseudo-sequitur to the OT but it's a great opinion column nonetheless...


Op-Ed Columnist - The Fire Next Time - NYTimes.com

 

[IOWA]

It seems like what's being said is if a utility can exist in any form without the government; then the government shouldn't be involved at all

Take for example a water metaphor: say we live in a desert the size of the United States, and somewhere in that desert there is an underground reservoir of water.

Just because we could theoretically have equal access to the water doesn't mean that it's practical or probable when C.R.E.A.M.

Authorities protecting our liberties is not the same as that famous Ben Franklin quote about sacrificing liberties for protection

Yes! It seems people want the government to control every aspect of their lives, and when they feel a companies product is unfair, the complaints start. I don't know how they think so much government intervention can possibly be a good thing. That's how precious freedoms get stripped away.

And as much as you make an argument that internet access is a needed utility to function, it is not, it is indeed a luxury. There are still hundreds of millions who go on day to day without the internet. Hell, some people don't even have phone service. But if internet access is needed for some reason or another, there are options out there. Most libraries have free community internet access, there are wifi hotspots in mcdonalds starbucks etc. Hell even internet cafes offer pay as you go internet services. And while it is more convienient and private in your own home, it is by no means a necessity to have it in your home at all.

And as for sattilite internet, if you get some decent to high quality sat. Hardware, your problems should be minimal to none. The free or subsidized dish isn't the only option.

 

[Hangdog42]

And as much as you make an argument that internet access is a needed utility to function, it is not, it is indeed a luxury.

Trillions of dollars argue the contrary. Unless of course you think roads, electricity and running water are also luxuries. If you want to go live in a cave, be my guest, but don't even begin to think that anyone else wants to.

There are still hundreds of millions who go on day to day without the internet. Hell, some people don't even have phone service. But if internet access is needed for some reason or another, there are options out there. Most libraries have free community internet access, there are wifi hotspots in mcdonalds starbucks etc.

LOL!!! Yeah, I can't wait to start rubbing elbows with all of my fellow small business owners at the local starbucks as we compete for bandwidth. I'm sure that will do wonders for everyone's productivity.

And as for sattilite internet, if you get some decent to high quality sat. Hardware, your problems should be minimal to none. The free or subsidized dish isn't the only option.

Once again, proof positive that you have never tried to use sattelite internet. No amount of hardware makes it good.

I don't know how they think so much government intervention can possibly be a good thing. That's how precious freedoms get stripped away.

No, precious freedoms get stripped away by corporations bribing congress with boatloads of cash. Ever heard of DCMA? Lots of freedoms got yanked from us by that one. Freedoms are also given away by the people. Ever heard of the "Patriot" Act. There hasn't been a bigger give-away of freedoms in the history of the US, and most people just sat there.


What is clear to me is that you have absolutely no idea what the Internet is actually used for. You know what you do and are assuming everyone else is doing nothing more. And you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[IOWA]

Trillions of dollars argue the contrary. Unless of course you think roads, electricity and running water are also luxuries. If you want to go live in a cave, be my guest, but don't even begin to think that anyone else wants to.



LOL!!! Yeah, I can't wait to start rubbing elbows with all of my fellow small business owners at the local starbucks as we compete for bandwidth. I'm sure that will do wonders for everyone's productivity.



Once again, proof positive that you have never tried to use sattelite internet. No amount of hardware makes it good.



No, precious freedoms get stripped away by corporations bribing congress with boatloads of cash. Ever heard of DCMA? Lots of freedoms got yanked from us by that one. Freedoms are also given away by the people. Ever heard of the "Patriot" Act. There hasn't been a bigger give-away of freedoms in the history of the US, and most people just sat there.


What is clear to me is that you have absolutely no idea what the Internet is actually used for. You know what you do and are assuming everyone else is doing nothing more. And you couldn't be more wrong.

Internet is nowhere near the same class as roads running water and power. Cars are much more important than internet, but people get along without those too.

And just because you THINK it is a necessity, it is not. Trillions of dollars are made by selling music and movies, and they are not a necessity. So your money argument is wrong.

Also, about the satnet, no sir, you are wrong. While I admit I have not personally used satnet, guess what a majority of our media/internet is broadcast on? Oh yeah, satillites. Phones too. Who'd have thought huh?

I am firmly against dcma, patriot act, and three strikes policies.

 

[burton71]

Yes! It seems people want the government to control every aspect of their lives, and when they feel a companies product is unfair, the complaints start. I don't know how they think so much government intervention can possibly be a good thing. That's how precious freedoms get stripped away.

Ok then if the government cannot regulate the internet then every ISP needs to repay the BILLIONS of dollars they were given and all subsidies must stop since MY tax dollars are paying for them to build, expand, and maintain their networks.

This also simply ignores the fact that the government basically setup these ISP natural monopolies in the first place.

While I admit I have not personally used satnet, guess what a majority of our media/internet is broadcast on? Oh yeah, satillites. Phones too. Who'd have thought huh?

And for everything beside internet traffic they are all regulated (or protected from regulation) by the government. You see the issue now?

 

[IOWA]

Ok then if the government cannot regulate the internet then every ISP needs to repay the BILLIONS of dollars they were given and all subsidies must stop since MY tax dollars are paying for them to build, expand, and maintain their networks.

This also simply ignores the fact that the government basically setup these ISP natural monopolies in the first place.

And for everything beside internet traffic they are all regulated (or protected from regulation) by the government. You see the issue now?

Ok good point. So then they can have two options, either pay back all monies received, and do as they please, or, not payback the money and be regulated. A perfectly viable solution to me, almost.

But here lies the problem, if the fcc does get involved, how long before the bleeding hearts start to censor the net anyway. Blocking content the see as "objectionable", much like they do with network/broadcast tv?

 

[USofPlutarchy]

Are you friggin serious? The Internet is no longer a luxury and hasn't been for a long time.

Dear god...sometimes I wonder how the U.S. got in the mess it's in, then people like this post and remind me what kind of people live here.

2) giving a stupid example to point out how all government interference of any kind is inherently bad (which it obviously isn't, it's necessary)

Try reading a history book and taking a class on applied microeconomics.

 

[IOWA]

Dear god...sometimes I wonder how the U.S. got in the mess it's in, then people like this post and remind me what kind of people live here.



Try reading a history book and taking a class on applied microeconomics.

Sir, I thank you. Its good to know some people still have a head on their shoulders. It seems my generation is suffering more and more of what I like to call the "entitlement complex" I'm also one of the very few 25 yr old semi-conservatives I know... especially in the liberal democratic machine that is chicago.

 

[kamk2k8]

Sir, I thank you. Its good to know some people still have a head on their shoulders. It seems my generation is suffering more and more of what I like to call the "entitlement complex" I'm also one of the very few 25 yr old semi-conservatives I know... especially in the liberal democratic machine that is chicago.

Yes, and then there are those on the fringes of my generation who have what I like to call a "stone-age complex"

 

[shawn1224]

I hope after you re-read your post you realize how nonsensical it is. There is nothing there to grok.

+ 1 for the Robert Heinlein reference

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Dear god...sometimes I wonder how the U.S. got in the mess it's in, then people like this post and remind me what kind of people live here.



Try reading a history book and taking a class on applied microeconomics.

If you and Iowa don't believe the internet has become a necessity, then by all means, have businesses such as mine stop using it and see what happens to costs.

Your second statement is not even worth the effort.

 

[momoceio]

If you want a glimpse into the future of what a non-neutral network would look like...just look at the way ATT and other carriers run their mobile phone network. I sure as hell don't want my provider telling me that I can't run a VoIP app such as Skype on my home PC. You want Gmail, Youtube, Google Voice and other highly utilized services to remain free? Then you need to have some form of net neutrality regulation. The Internet infrastructure should be treated as a public good much as the Interstate system is...the way a public good is controlled vs how it's maintained are distinctly different in the eyes of the government. This would allow ISPs to offer advanced services to ISPs and consumers as long as they don't degrade the services of people that don't wish to pay for such services. This would also allow for a minimum quality of service to be enforced and if traffic prioritization is required to make that happen...the decision of which traffic to prioritize would be up to a federal committee such as the FCC. This removes the ISP from the decision making process...which is how it should be. There are a ton of other options for ISPs to take advantage of to make additional profit if they would just work with content providers. If ISPs truly don't want to be regulated, then they need to work together with content providers to come up with some sort of solution.

 

[burton71]

Ok good point. So then they can have two options, either pay back all monies received, and do as they please, or, not payback the money and be regulated. A perfectly viable solution to me, almost.

ISPs paying anything back won't happen...ever.

But here lies the problem, if the fcc does get involved, how long before the bleeding hearts start to censor the net anyway. Blocking content the see as "objectionable", much like they do with network/broadcast tv?

Uhhh...the "bleeding hearts", and the FCC in this case, are against internet regulation.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Internet is nowhere near the same class as roads running water and power. Cars are much more important than internet, but people get along without those too.

And just because you THINK it is a necessity, it is not. Trillions of dollars are made by selling music and movies, and they are not a necessity. So your money argument is wrong.

Also, about the satnet, no sir, you are wrong. While I admit I have not personally used satnet, guess what a majority of our media/internet is broadcast on? Oh yeah, satillites. Phones too. Who'd have thought huh?

I am firmly against dcma, patriot act, and three strikes policies.

The internet is just as vital to the economy now as any of the utilities, it saves me hundreds of man hours a year which in turn saves my customers a lot of money.

As far as satellite internet, it sucks, plain and simple. Unless of course you can afford a true two way satellite system which will set you back around $8000.00. Most rely on a satellite down and phone line up, and last time I checked they were capped around 600mb. Add to this that the satellite tv I had (both Dish and Directv) totally sucked and fritzed out at the slightest cloud cover.

 

[IOWA]

The internet is just as vital to the economy now as any of the utilities, it saves me hundreds of man hours a year which in turn saves my customers a lot of money.

As far as satellite internet, it sucks, plain and simple. Unless of course you can afford a true two way satellite system which will set you back around $8000.00. Most rely on a satellite down and phone line up, and last time I checked they were capped around 600mb. Add to this that the satellite tv I had (both Dish and Directv) totally sucked and fritzed out at the slightest cloud cover.

Just because something saves you money or man hours doesn't make it a necessity. Your failing to see the difference. It is a convenience. I could say a riding lawn mower will save me an hour a week mowing my lawn, but that still, would be a convenience.

Many times in history, governments have said, "oh no, we just want to use it for this, not that." but end up using it for that anyway.

The best instance I can think of is the social security number. When it was first introduced, the government swore up and down it was only going to be used for SSI benifits, and the like. Now look at it, it's used for EVERYTHING if net nuetrality is allowed, it is only a matter of time before another power grab takes place. To think otherwise is foolish at best, as it has happened consistently time and time again all across history.

As for your satnet issues, that can easily be remedied. You need to make sure first and foremost it is calibrated correctly, over time, wind can push it around. Second, if you need it, spend a little bit on a better dish. Hell, you can even run a dual dish system. Just because you can't make it work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work at all.

 

[kamk2k8]

Just because something saves you money or man hours doesn't make it a necessity. Your failing to see the difference. It is a convenience. I could say a riding lawn mower will save me an hour a week mowing my lawn, but that still, would be a convenience.

Well, ok then what is not a convenience?

You're taking this issue to a clearly ridiculous logical extreme...

The internet is as "necessary" as any other utility, just because we could live in caves, eat raw meat, and drink dirty water to survive does not mean it's acceptable, even if it is all that's "necessary" in your idealistic fantasy land...

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Just because something saves you money or man hours doesn't make it a necessity. Your failing to see the difference. It is a convenience. I could say a riding lawn mower will save me an hour a week mowing my lawn, but that still, would be a convenience.

Many times in history, governments have said, "oh no, we just want to use it for this, not that." but end up using it for that anyway.

The best instance I can think of is the social security number. When it was first introduced, the government swore up and down it was only going to be used for SSI benifits, and the like. Now look at it, it's used for EVERYTHING if net nuetrality is allowed, it is only a matter of time before another power grab takes place. To think otherwise is foolish at best, as it has happened consistently time and time again all across history.

As for your satnet issues, that can easily be remedied. You need to make sure first and foremost it is calibrated correctly, over time, wind can push it around. Second, if you need it, spend a little bit on a better dish. Hell, you can even run a dual dish system. Just because you can't make it work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work at all.

So by your logic a power tool that makes my job quicker and therefore cheaper to the customer is not a necessity. For that matter, a job that took days instead of hours without a power tool, would that still be a convenience? That is where I am with the internet, I can do in hours what used to take days, so I am sorry what you mistake for a convenience is actually a necessity for me. Without it I would not be able to offer some of the services I do.

As for the satellite, I had the best signal you could possibly have, verified many times by numerous companies, and had top of the line equipment. Guess what? It is still a line-of-sight system, and many, many things can interrupt the connection. They all gave me the "Gee, I don't know what could be wrong, satellite just does not go out like this...", but me and everybody I knew that had it experienced regular signal interruptions. The final straw for me was an overcast, not raining, day which allowed me to only see 22 minutes of the Super Bowl.

Whether it is considered a communication system and therefore under the F.C.C. umbrella, a utility, or just a business under the F.T.C., it needs regulation or we will pay the price.

 

[Hangdog42]

Dear god...sometimes I wonder how the U.S. got in the mess it's in, then people like this post and remind me what kind of people live here.

You know, we used to have a smart country. It is posts like this that prove that the US is done for. Far too few people with even a lukewarm IQ.

Just because something saves you money or man hours doesn't make it a necessity. Your failing to see the difference. It is a convenience. I could say a riding lawn mower will save me an hour a week mowing my lawn, but that still, would be a convenience.

And here we have it. Proof positive that IOWA doesn't even have a feeble grasp of economics or business. No wonder there is no understanding that net neutrality is about preventing censorship.

 

[Caloy]

I agree with IOWA when he said that the internet is a convenience and not a necessity. I however think that we have paid for this convenience and that we have the right to access whatever information/convenience/entertainment without censorship/restriction of service. It is not in a company's right to restrict/censor information. The main service that an ISP provide is access to the internet. It is not their business what we do in the internet. Censorship and access restriction to available information should be the job of the Government, not Comcast.

 

[momoceio]

Everything in the U.S. is a convenience. I can live without electricity, water supply to my house, grocery stores, Internet, forums, TV, telephone, etc. So, the whole convenience vs necessity argument is pointless. On to a meaningful point...anyone?

 

[IOWA]

I agree with IOWA when he said that the internet is a convenience and not a necessity. I however think that we have paid for this convenience and that we have the right to access whatever information/convenience/entertainment without censorship/restriction of service. It is not in a company's right to restrict/censor information. The main service that an ISP provide is access to the internet. It is not their business what we do in the internet. Censorship and access restriction to available information should be the job of the Government, not Comcast.

Aha! Now we are getting somewhere. Now if isps could be sued for false advertising for claiming it is unlimited when it is not, problem solved. Power lies with us, but isntead, people want the government to call the shots for them. Easiest way to stop companies from practising things like this? Boycott.

Now before you get all "but but my money" on me, noone said freedoms and liberties come free. Ask any soldier who's been to war about this. He will agree.

Now let me share a personal story. This may explain why I deem certain things as a necessity, and as a convience. To the power tools reference, yes they are a convienence, and an asset. You don't need them for survival, there are plenty of ways to make money witout them. You do not have a right to these items, unless you pay for that right.

So, anyway. When I was a bit younger, I was a real terror. No drugs or gangs or anything like that, just a great big trouble maker. Long story short, I got the boot by dad at the age of 16 well, I come from a well to do family, not rich, but well funded. We didn't go without. Now all of that, poof, stripped away in an instant. I quickly learned what was a right, and what wasn't. What good is a right for unrestricted internet if you have no way to access it? I had to find a job, fast. The little bit of cash I had in pocket didn't last long. Hell, I realized even having a bed to sleep in was not a right. That was an earned priveldge. And just because person a doesn't pay for it, doesn't mean person c or d doesn't. But out of sight out of mind right? I'm all for the elimination of welfare too. If you are an able bodied person, with nothing to phyically keep you from working, you should reievve nothing from the government.


And I have no understanding of how economics works? I assure you it is you that doesn't. Our first abomniation? Credit cards. I know credit is needed in some cases, but to buy a new tv? A new computer or xbox? Please. Your failing to see the long term here. People are overspending, still, to this day. Spending more that what you make, is not a solution.

 

[Caloy]

Aha! Now we are getting somewhere. Now if isps could be sued for false advertising for claiming it is unlimited when it is not, problem solved. Power lies with us, but isntead, people want the government to call the shots for them. Easiest way to stop companies from practising things like this? Boycott.

Yes we have the choice to avail of their service or not. But then again, what if there were a collaboration between like companies agreeing to do the same thing? Or maybe a monopoly? You would say that that the anti-trust law protects us. Yet you don't like the government to control how a company conducts itself... I'm confused if you really like government control or not.

Now before you get all "but but my money" on me, noone said freedoms and liberties come free. Ask any soldier who's been to war about this. He will agree.

I've always believed that nothing comes for free, and everything is earned. So in this thought - we agree on.

Now let me share a personal story. This may explain why I deem certain things as a necessity, and as a convience. To the power tools reference, yes they are a convienence, and an asset. You don't need them for survival, there are plenty of ways to make money witout them. You do not have a right to these items, unless you pay for that right.

So, anyway. When I was a bit younger, I was a real terror. No drugs or gangs or anything like that, just a great big trouble maker. Long story short, I got the boot by dad at the age of 16 well, I come from a well to do family, not rich, but well funded. We didn't go without. Now all of that, poof, stripped away in an instant. I quickly learned what was a right, and what wasn't. What good is a right for unrestricted internet if you have no way to access it? I had to find a job, fast. The little bit of cash I had in pocket didn't last long. Hell, I realized even having a bed to sleep in was not a right. That was an earned priveldge. And just because person a doesn't pay for it, doesn't mean person c or d doesn't. But out of sight out of mind right?...

Everyone's experiences in life will have an effect on one's perspective. Clearly you had a rough time growing up, and with that experience, you now have a wider perspective in life. You've gained a philosophy unique to your experience. But are your views more objective then subjective. Whatever you're answer is, I won't contest it.

... I'm all for the elimination of welfare too. If you are an able bodied person, with nothing to phyically keep you from working, you should receive nothing from the government.

Clearly, your experiences when you were young has made you into a man. You had it tough, so you think if I can do it, why can't the others?

The only thing that you failed to take into consideration is the opportunities you had versus the opportunities others have come across. Not everyone, even with the desire and the ability to work can come across work. Especially with our economy now-a-days. How many jobs are out there versus the people who are looking for a job?

I applaud you for going so far with very little. But please don't be apathetic to the misfortunes of others, because we do not know what they have gone through nor what they tried to do to try and rise above their current situation.

I view welfare as a temporary solution to a bad situation for people, and I believe that welfare should be temporary, and limited. But I believe that welfare should still be there as a shock absorber for unfortunate incidents. Only enough for people not to take advantage of the system. Compassion is after-all what makes us human.

And I have no understanding of how economics works? I assure you it is you that doesn't. Our first abomniation? Credit cards. I know credit is needed in some cases, but to buy a new tv? A new computer or xbox? Please. Your failing to see the long term here. People are overspending, still, to this day. Spending more that what you make, is not a solution.

I never claimed I had a grasp of economics. Not sure where you got that from me. I agree that Credit should be used sparingly like a house, transportation etc. but you should blame our system. With the credit rating we have, we are force to have a credit history to get good APR for purchasing a home or a car. I have no complaints about the people who can manage their credit properly but people who can't manage their credit/spending, it is their fault.

I also cannot blame people who have lost their home due to the misfortune of the current economy (lost their job, sudden higher interest, etc.) especially when they have tried everything in their power to save their house. Sometimes the only action is to minimize the losses and sell the house at a tremendous discount, foreclose or declare bankruptcy.

I don't think a particular rule will apply to every situation. But having limited help from the government should be available just to give you a boost when you're down. Not enough to take advantage though.

Anyways, going back to the topic (Sorry for being off topic for so long)....

I don't believe a company should have the power to choose how much bandwidth we will have based on the information/site we are browsing. I believe it's censorship, and I believe we have the right to the information we seek (within the boundaries of the law) shouldn't be restricted. Especially if you have paid for that privilege.

 

[IOWA]

Sorry sometimes I don't quote everyone while making replies, because most of them are rushed.

 

[mrqs]

Power lies with us, but isntead, people want the government to call the shots for them. Easiest way to stop companies from practising things like this? Boycott.

point is, there's not going to be any better alternatives, so if you wanna boycott a restrictive isp, you'll be without internet access altogether
not many people would do that, which means the few that did, wouldn't have any impact - when is the last time you remember boycotting a product or service helped improve its quality?
it's a noble idea, but a naive one