Same-Sex Marriage

[pantlesspenguin]

Also, this post makes comparisons that many African-Americans find offensive.

This is the end results:
70% of African Americans backed Prop. 8, exit poll finds - latimes.com

Progression is the future. I'm talking about there here and now. Allowing parents to pull their children from discussions about homosexuality may not be relevant in the future, but it is relevant today.

You keep saying this. I personally find it offensive that they find it offensive. It's almost like because African-Americans were persecuted for so long over something they have no control over, now they get to do the same thing to some other group de jour. Let's see, who shall it be? *Spins the wheel* Ah, queers.

In all seriousness, though, comparisons between interracial marriage & gay marriage are very similar at some points, whether they want to hear it or not.

History News Network | Because the Past is the Present, and the Future too.

 

[Bob Maxey]

This isn't limited to sex ed though. Earlier we were discussing the "two princes" story and some are suggesting keeping any reference to homosexuality out of the class room be it in sex ed. or otherwise.

The point of sex ed, as I remember it, was teaching kids about the changes their bodies go through during puberty, including sexual urges, along with teaching safe sex practices. We were never taught how to have sex, who to have sex with, etc. because it simply isn't relevant. The vast majority of sex ed class simply covered how to take care of your body nutritionally, hygienically, etc.

I think you are talking about basic sex ed class. I learned the same things, but I cannot recall how extensive Homosexuality was discussed. It is a part of biology, which is where it should be discussed.

I recall that homosexuality can be observed in most of God's creatures. I recall that confined male rats will go after other male rats with a "love that dare not speak its name because the moderators will get mad" sort of way.

Prisoners in jail do not have problems finding a date, iffin you know what I mean. Anyway, it is a biological fact. That said, one could argue that it is not natural in that it does not fulfill the biological imperative: continuation of the species. But if you suggest that, and if it is true, you are immediately called a Homophobic Hater by some in the community that disagree with the science.

Homosexuality should be discussed in the same way the Limbic system, heart disease, or how bones and teeth form. And just let the kids know that if they become gay, God will hate and haunt them with everlasting locusts and boils and they will burn forever and ever and ever. Smiley.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

You keep saying this. I personally find it offensive that they find it offensive. It's almost like because African-Americans were persecuted for so long over something they have no control over, now they get to do the same thing to some other group de jour. Let's see, who shall it be? *Spins the wheel* Ah, queers.

In all seriousness, though, comparisons between interracial marriage & gay marriage are very similar at some points, whether they want to hear it or not.

History News Network | Because the Past is the Present, and the Future too.

That may be, but if you want to win over their support, the comparisons need to be toned down. That is especially true here in California where a Prop 8 repeal will be on the ballot in 2012.

Also, it is offensive how you state the African-Americans are homophobic because they are offended by such comparisons.

 

[copestag]

one of the things that has always bothered me about this whole argument is the blatant disregard for equality on behalf of those arguing in favor of gay marriage

thats right you read it correctly......... by arguing for gay marriage you are not arguing for equality........ you are quite simply arguing for social acceptance and the thought that somehow this makes you "normal"

as I see it theres really only 2 reasons to be arguing in favor of gay marriage:

you want your religion to accept you...... give it up...... they dont

or you want the same legal benefits as hetero married couples

if you reasoning is the latter...... you want the same legal benefits......... then I say you are encouraging the continued discrimination against single people........

if true equality is what you want......... then you should be arguing in favor of abolishing any special treatment/rule/incentive/etc for anyone regardless of marital status

but since you arent arguing in favor of that then one can only conclude that you think by making your 'marriage' legal you will fit in........ either that or you are simply as discriminatory as the next guy

 

[FreakyLocz14]

one of the things that has always bothered me about this whole argument is the blatant disregard for equality on behalf of those arguing in favor of gay marriage

thats right you read it correctly......... by arguing for gay marriage you are not arguing for equality........ you are quite simply arguing for social acceptance and the thought that somehow this makes you "normal"

as I see it theres really only 2 reasons to be arguing in favor of gay marriage:

you want your religion to accept you...... give it up...... they dont

or you want the same legal benefits as hetero married couples

if you reasoning is the latter...... you want the same legal benefits......... then I say you are encouraging the continued discrimination against single people........

if true equality is what you want......... then you should be arguing in favor of abolishing any special treatment/rule/incentive/etc for anyone regardless of marital status

but since you arent arguing in favor of that then one can only conclude that you think by making your 'marriage' legal you will fit in........ either that or you are simply as discriminatory as the next guy

I'm not arguing for social acceptance, just equality. That's why I also oppose showing homosexuality down kids throats in school, oppose forcing churchs to perform same-sex marriages, oppose forcing religious charities to place orphans in homosexual homes, and oppose hate crime legislation.

I take the libertarian stance, not the liberal stance. One uses a small government approach, while the other uses a proactive government approach.

 

[lordofthereef]

Are you somehow spinning this to say that giving benefits to married couples is discriminatory towards single people? If that's the case then I am not even going to comment as that is the most skewed view of marital rights I have ever read.

 

[gregs887]

IMHO it's all about personal freedom. I could care less about gay marriage or gays adopting and having children. I have more important things to worry about like our eroding 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights. When everyone gets up in arms about this it distracts from the real issues of the government intruding more and more into our daily lives.

 

[lordofthereef]

When someone tells their family and friends that that they are gay, it often does great damage. Fathers hate sons and mothers wonder where they went wrong. Tears are shed and many father's sons and daughters are dead. Friends often disappear.

This does not need factoids, or charts, or Wikipedia articles, it is a simply fact of life.

Here's the thing. The son of a KKK member decides to marry a black woman. The son of a devout Jewish family decides to marry a Christian. These all result in hurt, and I have seen it first hand (to be clear, I have only seen the Jew marry the Christian, I do not associate with KKK members knowingly. In the eyes of our law though, they are still allowed to go against their family's will.

If a man's (or woman's) parents are going to be hurt by them "coming out" this will happen with or without marriage. They are hurt because their kid is gay, not because they are getting married. Marriage isn't what is providing the hurt, the idea of homosexuality is.

 

[Vihzel]

Are you somehow spinning this to say that giving benefits to married couples is discriminatory towards single people? If that's the case then I am not even going to comment as that is the most skewed view of marital rights I have ever read.

I agree with this. I have never ever heard of that argument before... especially by straight married couples. Perhaps for good reason. I've never even heard of it before from single people either. Maybe I need to talk to more single people if they feel that marital rights are discriminatory against them and myself and figure out what the arguments are to get rid of marital rights because I honestly have no idea. I, as a single person, do not feel discriminated against because married couples have benefits that I don't have. Should I?

 

[FreakyLocz14]

IMHO it's all about personal freedom. I could care less about gay marriage or gays adopting and having children. I have more important things to worry about like our eroding 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights. When everyone gets up in arms about this it distracts from the real issues of the government intruding more and more into our daily lives.

We think alike, my friend.

 

[lordofthereef]

IMHO it's all about personal freedom. I could care less about gay marriage or gays adopting and having children. I have more important things to worry about like our eroding 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights. When everyone gets up in arms about this it distracts from the real issues of the government intruding more and more into our daily lives.

You make a valid point. That said, the fact that there may be more important issues going on currently doesn't make this any less important, especially to the people that are directly effected. Imagine if we could somehow discuss and act on only the most prominent issues today. That would leave so very many issues on the backburner, possibly forever, because they are never deemed important enough.

 

[lordofthereef]

That may be, but if you want to win over their support, the comparisons need to be toned down. That is especially true here in California where a Prop 8 repeal will be on the ballot in 2012.

Also, it is offensive how you state the African-Americans are homophobic because they are offended by such comparisons.

And the people who pushed for segregation were offended at the idea that segregation is unjust. Fact is, if you are suggesting something to people who think differently than you, they will get offended. Many are offended at the idea that a woman to man marriage can even be considered the same as a same sex marriage in the eyes of the law. People will be offended. We must move on.

I could have been offended when Bob said that "a kid needs a mom and pop" being that I grew up with only my mother. I could read into this and feel that this somehow implies that I am somehow inadequate when compared to the guy that was raised by a "traditional" family. Often times I find the people most offended by things are the ones blowing them way out of proportion.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

And the people who pushed for segregation were offended at the idea that segregation is unjust. Fact is, if you are suggesting something to people who think differently than you, they will get offended. Many are offended at the idea that a woman to man marriage can even be considered the same as a same sex marriage in the eyes of the law. People will be offended. We must move on.

I could have been offended when Bob said that "a kid needs a mom and pop" being that I grew up with only my mother. I could read into this and feel that this somehow implies that I am somehow inadequate when compared to the guy that was raised by a "traditional" family. Often times I find the people most offended by things are the ones blowing them way out of proportion.

You have a point, but these things need to be considered and cannot be ignored in an election campaign.

 

[lordofthereef]

You have a point, but these things need to be considered and cannot be ignored in an election campaign.

Certainly. Often times I think representatives tread TOO lightly (both sides, various topics) in an attempt to not offend the opposing mindset.

 

[Bob Maxey]

See, who's "fault" is that, though? Let me give you an example.

Let's say you have a son, Junior Maxey. You raise him to be a fine upstanding citizen. In high school, he was on the honor roll, captain of the football team, & voted Homecoming King. He was polite, & never got in trouble with the law. You just know he's going to make some young woman very happy, & raise a fine family some day.

Now he's off to college. He calls you before Christmas vacation & says that he has met someone very special, & asks if he can invite them to spend Christmas with your family. Overjoyed for your son, you say of course it's ok to bring her along & to tell you all about her. Your son then says "Actually, dad, HIS name is Daniel. I met him in my government course. He wants to go into law. He's a great guy & we have a lot in common & I know you & Mom will really like him."

The ball is now in Papa Maxey's court. Junior is still the same guy he has always been. Fine, upstanding, polite, etc. He's now entrusted you with some very important information about himself. The poor kid is on the edge of his seat wondering how you will react. How would you respond?

I would be disappointed, but no hatred. Hopefully he can redecorate Maxey Estates, or help me pick out a fabulous fall ensemble. Or perhaps help install the replacement disco ball.

Or teach me some better stereotypes.

If musically talented, perhaps he can help me find a replacement band member. We have a person that raises cattle, an off duty DEA Officer, a bass player of Native American decent, a member of a local motorcycle club, a construction worker, and a former Navy Seal. We just need an interior decorator and we can tour San Francisco or perhaps Dallas or Fargo. No more Flautists, however.

I would be far more upset if he bought a Japanese motorcycle rather than an American bike like a Cleveland or an Indian.

Truthfully, I do not know how I would feel or react. I'll let you know after the deprogramming sessions. Shocked and bothered that he was gay, I guess, and if I am to be honest. Perhaps I would banish him forever, I do not know.

Fortunately, my sperm is 100% male: I like guns, whiskey, cigars, red heads, bikes, fast cars, grease, oil, banjos, big manly amps, frisky groupies, high octane women, and other male stereotypes.

Oddly, I absolutely adore the scent of Lavender, it is to die for; and I tend to be neat and tidy. And I must say, I have started reading GQ Magazine, but only for the ads and articles. Does that mean I am turning Metro whatever it is called? I also know about color and design and what a Canap

 

[FreakyLocz14]

Certainly. Often times I think representatives tread TOO lightly (both sides, various topics) in an attempt to not offend the opposing mindset.

The comparisons were a big issues during the Prop 8 campaign. Many racial minorities, whom are very religious, felt very alienated because the No campaign tried didn't campaign to them a lot. After the campaign was over, a lot of No supporters then blamed African-Americans for the passage of Prop 8 and said that campaigning to them shouldn't have been necessary and that they should have automatically supported them by making more comparisons. Imagine how somebody who is black would feel about this.

 

[Bob Maxey]

IMHO it's all about personal freedom. I could care less about gay marriage or gays adopting and having children. I have more important things to worry about like our eroding 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights. When everyone gets up in arms about this it distracts from the real issues of the government intruding more and more into our daily lives.

I hear they want to give gay people the right to vote. This is a terrible idea in my view.

 

[gregs887]

You make a valid point. That said, the fact that there may be more important issues going on currently doesn't make this any less important, especially to the people that are directly effected. Imagine if we could somehow discuss and act on only the most prominent issues today. That would leave so very many issues on the backburner, possibly forever, because they are never deemed important enough.

I should have been more clear. When I said I could care less I meant that gay marriage doesn't bother me. In fact in my opinion gay marriage should have been recognized legally to begin with. I would love nothing more than to see every state in the union recognize same sex marriage. Somewhere along the line this country got off track when it came to personal freedoms and liberties. If you aren't hurting anyone else you should be allowed to do what you want.

This is purely an individual rights issue. Don't like gay marriage? Don't get one. Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Don't like guns? Don't buy one.

If this isn't making sense give me a break, I've been drinking since noon

 

[gregs887]

I hear they want to give gay people the right to vote. This is a terrible idea in my view.

Are you trolling? My sarcasm meter is off today.

 

[Dark Jedi]

You would think with all the struggles and sacrifices that the African americans has endured. You would think they would be sympothetic to the gay and lesbians fight and struggle to obtain equality. I guess when you are allowed on the other side of the fence you tend to forget how hard the struggle was and plus if you associate with homosexuals. People might start to think you are a homosexual. Maybe thats why so many people don't like to openly support the homosexual community. I have heard many times people say oh yeah he is gay but let me just say I am straight.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

You would think with all the struggles and sacrifices that the African americans has endured. You would think they would be sympothetic to the gay and lesbians fight and struggle to obtain equality. I guess when you are allowed on the other side of the fence you tend to forget how hard the struggle was and plus if you associate with homosexuals. People might start to think you are a homosexual. Maybe thats why so many people don't like to openly support the homosexual community. I have heard many times people say oh yeah he is gay but let me just say I am straight.

African-Americans were seriously persecuted. They were even enslaved. For homosexuals to claim to br the new blacks belittles their struggle.

 

[pantlesspenguin]

African-Americas were seriously persecuted. They were even enslaved for homosexuals to claim to the new blacks belittles their struggle.

You have it all wrong. No one is saying that gays claim to be the new blacks. No one is belittling their struggle at all. The comparison is that at one point people thought that interracial marriage was "unnatural." People thought that children produced by an interracial couple would be ******ed, or of a different "breed." Yes, people equated white people mating with black people to people having sex with animals. They just DIDN'T GET IT.

People judge and fear what they don't understand. I fall into this, as well. I don't understand bisexual people, just because I don't know what it's like to desire both men and women at the same time. Just because I don't get it, though, doesn't mean that I don't support bi people. As a lesbian, it would be unfair of me to make assumptions about bi people just because I don't understand it. Straight people make assumptions about me all the time, because they don't understand how I live.

That's the main reason gay people are up in arms about the comparison between interracial marriage and gay marriage. People didn't understand interracial marriage then, and people don't understand gay marriage now. The same concepts apply, it's just in a different context.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

You have it all wrong. No one is saying that gays claim to be the new blacks. No one is belittling their struggle at all. The comparison is that at one point people thought that interracial marriage was "unnatural." People thought that children produced by an interracial couple would be ******ed, or of a different "breed." Yes, people equated white people mating with black people to people having sex with animals. They just DIDN'T GET IT.

People judge and fear what they don't understand. I fall into this, as well. I don't understand bisexual people, just because I don't know what it's like to desire both men and women at the same time. Just because I don't get it, though, doesn't mean that I don't support bi people. As a lesbian, it would be unfair of me to make assumptions about bi people just because I don't understand it. Straight people make assumptions about me all the time, because they don't understand how I live.

That's the main reason gay people are up in arms about the comparison between interracial marriage and gay marriage. People didn't understand interracial marriage then, and people don't understand gay marriage now. The same concepts apply, it's just in a different context.

You have to see it through their eyes to understand. I'm not black, but most of my friends are. From what I gather, they indeed are offended by the comparisons. Those are the reasons they give.

 

[Dark Jedi]

African-Americas were seriously persecuted. They were even enslaved for homosexuals to claim to the new blacks belittles their struggle.

never said they was the new African-Americans. I said they should be sympathetic to the struggles that the homosexual community faces. With the hate and the beatings and also the killings. African-Americans has gone trough the same thing. So why can't they help them in their struggle. They could help each other but like always they will say like so many groups in the past theirs is totally different. In the end hate is hate and it doesn't discriminate.

 

[Dark Jedi]

You have to see it through their eyes to understand. I'm not black, but most of my friends are. From what I gather, they indeed are offended by the comparisons. Those are the reasons they give.

So your few friends speaks for the whole African-American community? Must be some powerful friends you have there. A few can not speak for the whole. You should say its their personal views.