• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

Should Apple Help the FBI Unlock a Phone with a Court Order

Curtis1973 said:
They work Chinese people at $1.82 an hour at 60-69 hour work weeks. Make them unlock the damn phone.
Click to expand...

I am not a fan of Apple in general, including their suspect manufacturing practices, however I fail to see the connection to why one dictates the other. You lost me. Care to elaborate? This is (in my mind) less about Apple (or any manufacturer for that matter) and more about our rights.
 
The people who owned the phone in question are for all intense purposes mass murderers. And here is this shameful one hit pony company with their little "i" brand refusing to even unlock the device so information can be gained on these individuals and any conspirators they may have been involved with. No one's rights are being infringed upon. No one said they had to give up any utilities they use to unlock the device. Their just out right refusing to even try. I am pro forcing them to or penalizing heavily for not.
 
Curtis1973 said:
The people who owned the phone in question are for all intense purposes mass murderers. And here is this shameful one hit pony company with their little "i" brand refusing to even unlock the device so information can be gained on these individuals and any conspirators they may have been involved with. No one's rights are being infringed upon. No one said they had to give up any utilities they use to unlock the device. Their just out right refusing to even try. I am pro forcing them to or penalizing heavily for not.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't want to drag this thread into the mud. So all I will say is some of your facts are (to my understanding) incorrect. It might have started with just this one phone, it then quickly escalated into 8 phones currently under investigation by the FBI to then being an implemented "fix" so that they can do so with any Iphone. Again, I don't want to crap on your post cause I get it, I have a great deal of contempt for Apple, always have. I try not to let that contempt cloud my judgement on other semi-related issues.
 
Suppose there was something detrimental to the company that owned the phone - they are now truly between a rock and a hard place.

I don't like it for other reasons. I have nothing on my phone, I don't use the cloud, I don't do social. Some 3 letter idiots have made statements that if you don't bare your soul on Facebook or Twitter, you are a terrorist. I could see someone really not believing the phone had no really usable history of anything except calls and text were blank. All I have is GPS on - Weather and astronomy use it.

There are others like me - but they are paranoid about the 3 letter agencies and really can get worked up. I just don't happen to have a need for the "normal" lifestyle - fanboys, people shaming, you name it.

What happened when Blackberry had to adjust its security so it could be sold in the Arab Emirates? They wanted the BB phones, but wanted to snoop, too.
 
shalemail said:
...if we make it possible for any and all data to be searched, just because a small percentage of people might do bad things, is that fair to the 95% of people that don't do anything wrong?

Is this a free society or is it a free society up to and until it's no longer easy?

I honestly don't know anymore, by nature I want to protect the innocent, the weak the powerless, but does that have to be at the expense of everyone?
Click to expand...
Yes, it does. It's not fair, but lotsa things aren't fair.

shalemail said:
I am not a fan of Apple in general, including their suspect manufacturing practices, however I fail to see the connection to why one dictates the other. You lost me. Care to elaborate? This is (in my mind) less about Apple (or any manufacturer for that matter) and more about our rights.
Click to expand...
But it's NOT about rights! The right to access information on phones has already been established. YES, "they" can. That debate is over.

The debate now is whether Apple can refuse to help access information on a phone, supposedly to protect their customers. I'm no lawyer, but I think it's fairly clear Apple will lose this one in court. Apple doesn't much care, win or lose they still win.

Oh, Apple will fake it, put up a smokescreen about how supposedly it's SO hard to break in the phone. A fake firmware patch, take days or weeks to "crack their secure code”. And pay lawyers to "defend your rights for you". The reality is they can be in the phone in seconds and they're defending their public perception of security, not your rights.

IOW, by playing the heroic defender of rights Apple will turn this into another giant marketing opportunity. A sales incentive. They will tout how they went to bat for their customers and how the iPhone is so secure the feds couldn't crack it.

But does anyone here seriously believe Apple would be concerned with rights if they were opening an employee's phone suspected of giving away Apple secrets?
 
Last edited:
I honestly do not have a dog in this fight so I will leave it be, we all seem to be going around in circles anyway. Some for some against some don't care.
Since I don't have (and never will have) an apple phone, since I don't care at all if the pope looked through my phone or PC or whatever, since I really have no influence on the situation. I say Que Sera, Sera.
 
codesplice said:
The trick, I believe, is that the method proposed by the FBI would inherently work on every other Apple device. As I understand it, there's not a way to build the hacked software package in such a way that it could only be used on the device in this case. Once that door is open, it can't be closed.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree.

The FBI deliver the device to Apple's lab, stand over it while the 'hacked' firmware is installed, the backdoor jimmied open and the data extracted, then the device is restored and returned into their custody.

Curtis1973 said:
They work Chinese people at $1.82 an hour at 60-69 hour work weeks to make their iPhones.
Click to expand...

Not only irrelevant to the discussion, but also equally true of many Android OEMs. I suggest that you check the "Made in..." sticker before throwing stones inside your glasshouse. ;)
 
Apple has finally filed their official response to the court order. As expected, they open with the argument that "[t]his is not a case about one isolated iPhone." We'll see who's buying it...
The government says: “Just this once” and “Just this phone.” But the government knows those statements are not true; indeed the government has filed multiple other applications for similar orders, some of which are pending in other courts.2 And as news of this Court’s order broke last week, state and local officials publicly declared their intent to use the proposed operating system to open hundreds of other seized devices—in cases having nothing to do with terrorism.3 If this order is permitted to stand, it will only be a matter of days before some other prosecutor, in some other important case, before some other judge, seeks a similar order using this case as precedent. Once the floodgates open, they cannot be closed, and the device security that Apple has worked so tirelessly to achieve will be unwound without so much as a congressional vote.
Click to expand...

The document goes on to mention some of the technical implications of the government's request, as well as the possible ramifications (both here and abroad) of compliance. There are also pages and pages of legal discussion describing how current legislation and case law supports Apple's position that the court does not have the authority to compel a company in this manner.

All told, it's 65 pages of legal verbiage and arguments that should make for some light reading for your Thursday afternoon. ;)
https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...Vacate-Brief-and-Supporting-Declarations.html

**edit**
@Slug I was actually posting this as you posted your previous message; very timely though!
Slug said:
I respectfully disagree.

The FBI deliver the device to Apple's lab, stand over it while the 'hacked' firmware is installed, the backdoor jimmied open and the data extracted, then the device is restored and returned into their custody.
Click to expand...

Since making the post that you quoted, I have done more reading and it does sound like it would indeed be technically feasible for the custom firmware to be built specifically for the serial number of the device in question. And I think the FBI's plan was for Apple to do magic to disable the automatic wipe protection and enable electronic passcode entry, but for the FBI to actually carry out the bruteforce attack.

So yeah, from a technical perspective it should be doable. I'm still siding with Apple on this (holy crap), and support their argument that doing so would establish a dangerous precedent.
 
Last edited:
Slug said:
I respectfully disagree.

The FBI deliver the device to Apple's lab, stand over it while the 'hacked' firmware is installed, the backdoor jimmied open and the data extracted, then the device is restored and returned into their custody.



Not only irrelevant to the discussion, but also equally true of many Android OEMs. I suggest that you check the "Made in..." sticker before throwing stones inside your glasshouse. ;)
Click to expand...


oh dont get me wrong. i dont support any company using slave labor to feed any market their products. those workers are slaved to make iPhones,those workers are slaved to make android devices,those workers are slaved to make many things for garbage wages. not only apple is in the wrong there. i pointed ot out because i find it hilarious any company using slave labor to make them rich beyond belief has the balls to even suggest its ok to hinder a legit federal investigation. apple could easily get in those devices. they just don't want to. thats ok. someone will. i say take john mcafee up on his psycho offer to do it.
 
codesplice said:
I think the FBI's plan was for Apple to do magic to disable the automatic wipe protection and enable electronic passcode entry, but for the FBI to actually carry out the bruteforce attack.
Click to expand...

Erm yeah...nope. :)

The entire procedure should be performed in the presence of both parties. That's the only fair way to ensure that he concerns of each side are addressed.
 
Curtis1973 said:
oh dont get me wrong. i dont support any company using slave labor to feed any market their products. those workers are slaved to make iPhones,those workers are slaved to make android devices,those workers are slaved to make many things for garbage wages. not only apple is in the wrong there. i pointed ot out because i find it hilarious any company using slave labor to make them rich beyond belief has the balls to even suggest its ok to hinder a legit federal investigation. apple could easily get in those devices. they just don't want to. thats ok. someone will. i say take john mcafee up on his psycho offer to do it.
Click to expand...

Quite frankly I don't think you'll be buying any smart-phone then, Samsung, HTC, Motorola(Lenovo), Honor, etc. or just about any other consumer item, that's made in China, Vietnam, South Korea, India, etc.

FYI slave labour is illegal, even in China. Yeh, garbage wages compared to the United States, but a reasonable wage for a factory worker here in China though, there is much worse, e.g. apparel or toy industry.

Anyway that's enough from me, I don't usually take part in P&CA type threads.
 
it may be peanuts for others outside china's economy.
but in china... that is a step up... and a step in the right direction.

what would happen to china if companies take all those jobs away?
 
mikedt said:
Quite frankly I don't think you'll be buying any smart-phone then, Samsung, HTC, Motorola(Lenovo), Honor, etc. or just about any other consumer item, that's made in China, Vietnam, South Korea, India, etc.

FYI slave labour is illegal, even in China. Yeh, garbage wages compared to the United States, but a reasonable wage for a factory worker here in China though, there is much worse, e.g. apparel or toy industry.

Anyway that's enough from me, I don't usually take part in P&CA type threads.
Click to expand...

I don't think the Chinese could be any worse than the Bangladeshi garment makers. You can't really tell which brand is using them since they make for all brands, so it's hard to ban. Unless it's a family type business, you can't be sure everything was made in the US. It might be assembled in the US, but can all the parts be guaranteed? I sew, so any garments are made in the US - but I don't know where the fabric factory is. You can guarantee your own maple syrup if you tap it and that's about it.

I was thinking the same about comparative prices and outlook. Other countries are totally different in cell usage, but a cell tower is probably a lot more efficient than hard wiring. It seems to be connecting Africa and parts of India.

That's also part of Apple's conundrum - some of these places are a lot more snoopy and restrictive and giving them another back door -------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10830485
The ban spread and that helped kill BB. I always liked BB's organization on the phone.
 
If the iPhone in question has WhatsApp on it, the FBI is still sunk :p as everything thru that app is encrypted.
That is why my son uses it on his company iPhone for SMS messages. Hi employer is foreign owned and controlled, and have a different way of thinking than we in the USA do...

so, he would just prefer that they not be able to monitor our family discussions, as we get into subject matter that is not allowed in their home country...
 
Last edited:
AZgl1500 said:
If the iPhone in question has WhatsApp on it, the FBI is still sunk :p and everything thru that app is encrypted.
Click to expand...

And that's something that Apple actually touched on in their filing yesterday. They pointed out that ISIS has mandated a list of secure applications for encrypting data and communications. It's quite possible that even if the FBI gets access to the user data on the device they would have further layers of encryption to deal with before being able to access any truly useful data - if such data exists at all.
 
I personally think the FBI is going to loose on this one...
we just cannot afford to open the flood gates, look at the "Edward Snowden's of the world", it is impossible to contain a secret password once it has been let out.

in the world of security, the only safe secret is the one you know, and don't tell anyone else.
Once a 2nd party knows, it is all over...
 
argedion said:
Here is an article on paper work the courts filed today

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-encryption-doj-idUSKCN0VS2FT?utm_source=Facebook
Click to expand...
Once again, fbi made a mess, now expects Apple to fix it! They had to be sneaky & have San Berdo Co. change info on the the phone. Now they cannot get back in. Apple, @ 1st, attempted to help; not enough, apparently for fbi.
My question is where will they stop demanding to get into phones? Each case will lead to another until they have full access to everyone's info.
 
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...bly-good-chance-not-much-is-on-seized-iphone/

I'd tend to go along with this. If they destroyed personal phones, they were probably smart enough not to use a work phone for anything personal. I'm still thinking the agency(Health dept?) that employed the male wanted to know if their (the workplace's) butt was covered. Since said company had already asked the FBI, and were answered, the 3 letter agencies can blame themselves and do more about intra-agency communication. All necessary agencies should have been advised that the company (Health?) cell phone was working with the FBI.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom