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The Gun Law Discussion

Ditto and in that situation, i used what was lying around to defend myself.

In a separate incident, i have a scar across the top of my hand (3 severed tendons) and another scar on my wrist where the surgeon stitched those tendons back together where 2 very nasty guys kicked in my ex's door and marched in with mini samurai swords (weapon of choice here) because they thought a guy who stabbed one of their friends was there. I got in the way and if i hadnt lifted my hand, it would have been my throat.
Now these guys REALLY believed that this other guy was there and theyd have murdered him happily if he was. If theyd had guns, me and my then girlfriend would probably have had our brains blown out..
 
funkylogik said:
Ditto and in that situation, i used what was lying around to defend myself.

In a separate incident, i have a scar across the top of my hand (3 severed tendons) and another scar on my wrist where the surgeon stitched those tendons back together where 2 very nasty guys kicked in my ex's door and marched in with mini samurai swords (weapon of choice here) because they thought a guy who stabbed one of their friends was there. I got in the way and if i hadnt lifted my hand, it would have been my throat.
Now these guys REALLY believed that this other guy was there and theyd have murdered him happily if he was. If theyd had guns, me and my then girlfriend would probably have had our brains blown out..
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That is a very real situation and one I don't want to be in unarmed. I'm glad you came out with minimal injury considering the situation.

Also with the theater... We had the aurora massacre here that was covered all over the media, I'm sure you heard about that one. A week later there was another one attempted. That one was stopped by a legally armed citizen before any innocent lives were lost, that one wasn't covered by the media.

I joined the military because I really will do anything to protect innocent people. Not everyone can do that. I look at it as my responsibility, and am willing and able to accept that responsibility. I don't think everyone should own a gun, but anyone who is responsible and willing to accept the responsibility should be able to. They should also be able to choose what firearm works the best for them.
 
Yup i TOTALLY understand that mate and i respect what youve done for what you believe in.
If were talkin about the US then it really is a difficult situation. Theres SO many legaly sold and legaly/illegaly owned arms and ammunition that it seems like the only defence against that is decent folk owning an equal and opposite force to defend themself with. I honestly cant think of a way to fix that now.
But would you agree that in countrys that havent got that problem yet (saturation of firearms) that they should learn from the US mistakes and NEVER make firearms so easy to own?
Its a vicious circle mate, its how the world ended up having atomic weapons. Like-for-like force.
It may make the person who posesses that weapon feel safer but in the big picture, does it make everyone safer? :thumbup:
 
funkylogik said:
Yup i TOTALLY understand that mate and i respect what youve done for what you believe in.
If were talkin about the US then it really is a difficult situation. Theres SO many legaly sold and legaly/illegaly owned arms and ammunition that it seems like the only defence against that is decent folk owning an equal and opposite force to defend themself with. I honestly cant think of a way to fix that now.
But would you agree that in countrys that havent got that problem yet (saturation of firearms) that they should learn from the US mistakes and NEVER make firearms so easy to own?
Its a vicious circle mate, its how the world ended up having atomic weapons. Like-for-like force.
It may make the person who posesses that weapon feel safer but in the big picture, does it make everyone safer? :thumbup:
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I think countries that have made firearms Illegal should change that. Look at recent trends in Australia and Britain for example. As soon as guns are banned, violent crime (assault, rape, robbery, etc) skyrockets. An armed society is a polite society.

Probably one of the most peaceful and safe countries in the world is Switzerland. Every home there is required to have an assault rifle (a real one, not an AR15) and ammunition. People regularly carry guns in public.

Clearly guns are not the problem, people are. Guns are a deterrent. Yes, they can be used for evil, but so can knives, hammers, swords, chainsaws, etc. I wouldn't want to face 4 trained men with swords with out a gun, even if I had a sword also, and I have extensive martial arts training including weapons.
 
Yeah true mate. Switzerland, to be fair, is a very rich, fairytail land lol. If the place gets bad, theyl regret having all those weapons lying around.
I think in the US, the (is it the 2nd ammendment?) declaring the right to bear arms made a lot of sense when it was written but it makes no sense to apply it to another nation now.

Can i ask hypotheticly (i cant spell lol).. if you could press a button and only law inforcement in the US would posess a gun (everyone elses would vanish), would you?

P.s, mainstream police forces here only started using firearms because of mainly illegaly imported US and Russian firearms in the hands of criminals
 
funkylogik said:
Yeah true mate. Switzerland, to be fair, is a very rich, fairytail land lol. If the place gets bad, theyl regret having all those weapons lying around.
I think in the US, the (is it the 2nd ammendment?) declaring the right to bear arms made a lot of sense when it was written but it makes no sense to apply it to another nation now.

Can i ask hypotheticly (i cant spell lol).. if you could press a button and only law inforcement in the US would posess a gun (everyone elses would vanish), would you?
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Absolutely not (correct 2nd amendment). If Switzerland gets bad, I think you are wrong about the guns. I'll address these 2 things in 2 points:

1. People have a right to protect themselves. There have been over 100million people killed by their own governments in the last century. Everyone thought their government would never do that to them and the first step has ALWAYS been disarming the citizens. It doesn't always happen after disarmament, but sometimes it does. That is why the amendment was written, and it still has relevance today. Sure, if the government turned against us we may not have a chance, but we might. Look at Syria, there are rebels fighting against their government right now to some degree of success. I really haven't followed that much, but it is just an example of how an armed populace has a chance. Another of the more recent examples... Nazi Germany. When Hitler took power he had a 90% approval rating, he disarmed everyone except the government, everything he did in Germany was legal when he did it, look how that turned out...

2. There is a HUGE flaw in your thinking. You think guns are bad. If guns were bad, then yes Switzerland would hate all those guns being out there. A gun does not have the ability to be good nor evil, only the person pulling the trigger controls that.
 
I understand what you mean by guns not being the bad thing, its the person pulling the trigger but how can you or anyone decide what is a right or wrong reason to kill someone?
How can you think that a country having more guns (an easy way to kill someone) is a good thing lol??
Noones opinion is right or wrong so in your ultimate world.. the minority die?
 
funkylogik said:
You could stop the other guy from wanting to have or use that weapon mate :)

The government IS the people, its who they voted for or failed to vote against. Its all the same thing man.
You and the annoying dude nextdoor or the US/UK and Russia/Most of the arabia/most of asia....
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(Quoted from a different thread)

How do you stop someone else from having a weapon? Make them illegal? That is why no one ever gets high because cocaine, pot, meth, etc are all illegal right? No??? What do you mean, criminals don't follow the law and get what they want anyways? I can't stop anyone from having a weapon, I can however stop someone from using that weapon to kill innocent people. If I die or am wounded in the process, so be it, that is a price I am willing to pay to try to give innocent people a chance to not be a victim.

The government is not always the people. There are politicians that lie, then change everything after getting elected, there is voter fraud (huge here in the US), there is corruption once people are elected, etc. There are people that aren't elected that control things (CIA director, FBI director, police chiefs, all of the UN, etc). I'll stay off of that anymore, because that isn't the topic of either thread.
 
funkylogik said:
I understand what you mean by guns not being the bad thing, its the person pulling the trigger but how can you or anyone decide what is a right or wrong reason to kill someone?
How can you think that a country having more guns (an easy way to kill someone) is a good thing lol??
Noones opinion is right or wrong so in your ultimate world.. the minority die?
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Using a gun is justified to protect one's self or property. I have the right to kill someone who is trying to kill me. I have the right to kill someone who breaks into my house because I don't know their intention, but if it was anything good they wouldn't be breaking in. If it isn't defense (self or someone else), murder is wrong. I hope I never have to use my gun, but if I do, it is a last resort and I won't regret it. If I watch someone die, especially my family, and have no way to stop it I would not be able to live with it.

Evil can not be eliminated. Crime can not be eliminated. People that want to hurt others can not be eliminated. Crazy can not be eliminated. Drugs making people wants to hurt others can not be eliminated. Other than crazy or drugs, the thought that someone might be armed is a deterrent to committing that act of violence or theft. That is why more guns make people safer.

Perfect example. 25 states in America require no permit at all to carry a concealed firearm, 4 out of every 5 murders occur in the other 25 states. The highest murder rate in America is in Chicago which has the strictest gun laws and ZERO conceal carry in the whole state (that will soon change due to court order). If you look at any statistics, when gun ownership is higher, violent crime rate is lower.
 
Yup, you can legislate against the guy having that weapon (its working pretty well in rich societys outside the US) OR stop the guy from using one by shooting him with one before he shoots you (50:50 chance) :confused:
I without a doubt prefer the former for me and my loved ones :)

The US situation does bother me though because i like the people of the US as a personality.

Id whole-heartedly disagree with relaxing firearms laws in countries like mine but i honestly dont know how to fix it in the US...
..does anyone who DOES agree that its a problem in the US, know how to start fixing it?
 
funkylogik said:
Yup, you can legislate against the guy having that weapon (its working pretty well in rich societys outside the US) OR stop the guy from using one by shooting him with one before he shoots you (50:50 chance) :confused:
I without a doubt prefer the former for me and my loved ones :)

The US situation does bother me though because i like the people of the US as a personality.

Id whole-heartedly disagree with relaxing firearms laws in countries like mine but i honestly dont know how to fix it in the US...
..does anyone who DOES agree that its a problem in the US, know how to start fixing it?
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with good law abiding citizens owning weapons. These are people that will never use that weapon against another person unless they have no other option, in which case they need and deserve that option. I guarantee my odds are better than 50:50 if someone breaks in my house (I would say at least 80:20 on a bad day), they are maybe 50:50 outside my house when I only have a handgun, but at least I have a chance. My odds are 0:100 when I don't have a gun against someone with a gun, and lots of in betweens with other weapons. I put my odds so high because of training and practice. I've been in life and death situations and I practice with my firearms whenever I can.

I think things need fixed, I've stated that earlier in this thread. I am very firm that no more guns need outlawed. Anyone who is scared of an AR15 and not a shotgun is only scared out of ignorance about guns. Personally, close range, indoors, I would take my 12GA pump shotgun because at close range you can't get much more destructive, but again my wife can't effectively use a 12GA due to power. I know the "universal background check" bill that failed would not have fixed anything. There are 2 things that need done that would immediately help:

1. Prosecute those that break the law. Last year alone over 12,000 people applied to purchase a gun that were convicted felons. Every one of them broke the law by trying to purchase one, 44 were prosecuted. We don't enforce the laws we already have, why would more help??

2. Mental health!!!!!! This is the big one. I have a family member that will end up murdering someone. We will be lucky if he is caught after 1. He has a history of hurting animals and attempted murder (at only 8 years old, and more than once). He was in and out of psychiatric care and eventually no one would see him anymore because even at a young age he could fool the doctors. He was physically, mentally, and sexually abused at a very young age, but eventually social services wouldn't even help anymore. I won't go into any more detail because it is very personal, but this is the biggest problem to preventing mass murder.
 
funkylogik said:
I understand what you mean by guns not being the bad thing, its the person pulling the trigger but how can you or anyone decide what is a right or wrong reason to kill someone?
How can you think that a country having more guns (an easy way to kill someone) is a good thing lol??
Noones opinion is right or wrong so in your ultimate world.. the minority die?
Click to expand...

Sorry to jump in here. I feel I do have the right to decide when to defend myself or my family. I don't see it as killing someone. If another person makes a decision to attempt harm on me or my family, why shouldn't I be allowed to use a weapon to defend my family? If you disarm the citizens, you open the door for more crimes and eliminate any ability to try and parallel what weapons a criminal can get their hands on.

IMO, if criminals know that there are no weapons, they are at a higher comfort level. If they know that there is a chance that someone will be carrying, that decreases the odds. That's just how people think.

If you look at guns as a "easy way to kill someone", why? So are numerous other things. They are the extension of a sick mind. If for some reason you could ban them, and all the criminals said " darn, this sucks" and even turned them in. That would only force them to find another route to execute what ever agenda they have. Start there and fix the real issue, don't keep eliminating things until someone realizes its the person on the other end of a gun, behind the wheel of a car, or someone looking up stuff on the internet.


Let me ask you this, Its 3:30 in the morning, my dogs starts barking. I hear a gun shot, killing my dog. I have just a few seconds to get to my kids and get my phone to call for help. This intruder is in my house, armed. (Because he refused to turn his gun in, when asked. Crazy right?) . He has made the intent known that he is going to harm either myself or my family. How does this play out? How can I defend my family? Throw some of the kids toys at him?, ask him to please leave? What would you do?
 
Can i use the legal defense we have in this country that although i stand by what i say and believe it to be true, i just cant even begin to defend myself against the overwhelming and (frankly jury-winning) evidence being put forward by the prosecution? lol :)

Its been interesting though and i understand the NRA psyche more peeps thanks and PEACE :)
 
I'm a little late on this one, but what about the 14 year old boy who was babysitting his siblings?
They were all home alone, and there was knocking at the door, and the parents had told him never to answer the door while home alone, after not answering the door, the knocking turned into banging on the door. The boy then rushed upstairs and grabbed his dad's hand gun when he got back to the stairs the intruder had made his way into the house and he was armed. Without hesitation, the boy fired and wounded the intruder.

So what would have been the outcome of this had the gun been locked away where the son couldn't get to it? The intruder could have killed the children, or even taken them. You can't hold everyone responsible for what a slight percentage does wrong.

14-year-old Phoenix boy shoots, critically wounds armed intruder
 
Poweredge99 said:
Sorry to jump in here. I feel I do have the right to decide when to defend myself or my family. I don't see it as killing someone. If another person makes a decision to attempt harm on me or my family, why shouldn't I be allowed to use a weapon to defend my family? If you disarm the citizens, you open the door for more crimes and eliminate any ability to try and parallel what weapons a criminal can get their hands on.

IMO, if criminals know that there are no weapons, they are at a higher comfort level. If they know that there is a chance that someone will be carrying, that decreases the odds. That's just how people think.

If you look at guns as a "easy way to kill someone", why? So are numerous other things. They are the extension of a sick mind. If for some reason you could ban them, and all the criminals said " darn, this sucks" and even turned them in. That would only force them to find another route to execute what ever agenda they have. Start there and fix the real issue, don't keep eliminating things until someone realizes its the person on the other end of a gun, behind the wheel of a car, or someone looking up stuff on the internet.


Let me ask you this, Its 3:30 in the morning, my dogs starts barking. I hear a gun shot, killing my dog. I have just a few seconds to get to my kids and get my phone to call for help. This intruder is in my house, armed. (Because he refused to turn his gun in, when asked. Crazy right?) . He has made the intent known that he is going to harm either myself or my family. How does this play out? How can I defend my family? Throw some of the kids toys at him?, ask him to please leave? What would you do?
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In my state, in the cities, the average response time for a priority call is around 8 minutes. The average time for me to get my handgun when being awakened in the night is only seconds, getting my AR only a few more seconds. I have waken up in the middle of the night to intruders at my friends house once and I just so happened to be carrying that night. I woke up my friend and told him what was going on and we did exactly what we needed to do. No shots were fired.

Point is I will always be prepared for that situation. I don't want to have it come to it, but I will not let anything happen to me or my friends and family
 
chrlswltrs said:
I think countries that have made firearms Illegal should change that. Look at recent trends in Australia and Britain for example. As soon as guns are banned, violent crime (assault, rape, robbery, etc) skyrockets. An armed society is a polite society.
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Well, violent crime (muggings, assaults, rape etc) has been declining in Europe over the last few years. England and Wales has seen violent crime go down by around 5% or something. France has seen a decrease too.

chrlswltrs said:
Probably one of the most peaceful and safe countries in the world is Switzerland. Every home there is required to have an assault rifle (a real one, not an AR15) and ammunition. People regularly carry guns in public.
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You are getting 'military reserves' confused with every home.
 
ElasticNinja said:
Well, violent crime (muggings, assaults, rape etc) has been declining in Europe over the last few years. England and Wales has seen violent crime go down by around 5% or something. France has seen a decrease too.



You are getting 'military reserves' confused with every home.
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You also make a good point. For some reason, when things are made legal there's a decline in the bad that comes out of it.
 
ElasticNinja said:
You are getting 'military reserves' confused with every home.
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While it may not be every home, it is every male ages 20 - 30. At around age 20 swiss males will undergo basic military training and will stay a part of the militia until around their early 30s. After their period in the militia is up they are offered the choice to keep the firearm and other equipment received in their training or to give it up. If they choose to keep it, the rifle will be sent to the factory and be made to function as a semi auto only and returned to the individual.

To carry a gun in public even if it is someone belonging to the militia (pertaining to their personal arms) requires a permit which is usually only given to citizens who work in occupations that may require the need to do so.

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world

snopes.com: Gun Ownership in Switzerland
 
Are We Finally Insane Yet?

From the NYT:

"Officials in the movie and television industry say the new laws could prevent them from using the lifelike assault weapons and high-capacity magazines that they have employed in shows like
 
A gun should never be in the reach of children that do not have the knowledge of gun safety, let alone a loaded gun.
 
sntaylor said:
BBC News - Five-year-old boy shot two-year-old sister with kids' gun
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How about you show us the statistics for the millions of people who have a gun, and don't leave it laying around.




chrlswltrs said:
That's a parent being stupid. When children are that young you don't store a loaded gun in a corner so your 5 year old can play with it. When someone is stupid and it results in a death, that is not justification to remove any rights or freedoms from anyone else.
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Exactly. Besides, I'm sure plenty of parents do the same thing, but have a trigger lock on the gun. Nope, while this is sad, it isn't a reason to take guns away. Punish the parents for leaving an unsecured gun with unsupervised children.
 
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