%@#%@ the unions!

[Tom Ace]

higher taxes and less services caused by PS unions benifit "average Americans"

Nope, unions bring benefits for the average Americans involved in the unions, and they don't cause higher taxes or less services. I guess this helps answer my question. It seems people are misinformed which is why they are so easily duped into believing ideas that go against them.

 

[ElasticNinja]

ok, I thought higher state spending on wages would require tax increases and service reductions
sorry, my bad, sincerest apologies

 

[mdram]

Nope, unions bring benefits for the average Americans involved in the unions, and they don't cause higher taxes or less services. I guess this helps answer my question. It seems people are misinformed which is why they are so easily duped into believing ideas that go against them.

unions bring higher prices and taxes for the average american.
taxes for ps unions to cover thier costs,
prices for private sector companies to cover the costs.

 

[jamor]

Ryan you are very confused, misinformed. I'd be happy to help you out but you have to join my union and pay me $600 a week.

It is not an option, but required.

 

[byteware]

Nope, unions bring benefits for the average Americans involved in the unions, and they don't cause higher taxes or less services. I guess this helps answer my question. It seems people are misinformed which is why they are so easily duped into believing ideas that go against them.

Yes, unions bring benefits and higher wages to their members, but currently, the law gives the unions too much power. Make paying dues OPTIONAL, instead of required by law, and the Unions power will balance out with the company's.

Unions being TOO powerful hurts the companies that the unions' members are working for, which in turn hurts the unions members.

 

[Tom Ace]

Perhaps this: Flat Tax or a consumption tax and no federal income tax. It would require that we repeal the 16th Amendment because we do not want income tax to come back and bite us.

If I earn a million and the rate is 10% (to keep it simple) I pay $100,000. If you make $10,000.00 per year, you pay one grand. If I earn a billion, I pay the same rate you pay. This is fair and reasonable.

False. It is neither fair nor reasonable. You're assuming all of that money is equally valuable, and that's where the fault lies. The money used to pay for basic food, shelter and clothing is much more valuable than the money used to pay for a yacht or a second or third house.

Taking $3,000 from someone making $30,000 has an immensely different effect than taking $50,000 from someone making $500,000. When you factor in that difference, it renders a flat tax unreasonable, and a progressive makes much more sense.

A consumption tax would contribute because illegally earned money, when spent, would be taxed. So rather than paying income tax at the end of the year, I pay nothing. No forms or check to the IRS. If I earn money under the table and I buy something, the tax is paid.

Your tax filing would be easy and simple and take a few moments to do as would mine.

Also, deductions would be limited to just a few, but everybody has them available. The rich can deduct as can the "poor." If we still have public school, and you have zero deductions available because it is ostensibly free. But I do because I sent little Bobby to a private school and it cost me money. I suppose some will think this is unfair, huh?

The income tax problems would largely go away and everyone pays, one way or another. No more of "the rich get this and the poor suffer" argument. EVERYONE pays.

Yeah, I can't stop laughing, either.

Bob Maxey

Some kind of sales tax wouldn't be bad, but not to replace an income tax.

 

[byteware]

False. It is neither fair nor reasonable. You're assuming all of that money is equally valuable, and that's where the fault lies. The money used to pay for basic food, shelter and clothing is much more valuable than the money used to pay for a yacht or a second or third house.

Taking $3,000 from someone making $30,000 has an immensely different effect than taking $50,000 from someone making $500,000. When you factor in that difference, it renders a flat tax unreasonable, and a progressive makes much more sense.

I disagree, partially.

anything under the poverty level is not taxed, and your income minus your taxes cannot be below the poverty line.

Beyond that, disposable income is disposable income and should be taxed at the same rate.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I think their should be taxes on sitting assets
this forces businesses to spend money, and helps prevent property bubbles

 

[Tom Ace]

ok, I thought higher state spending on wages would require tax increases and service reductions
sorry, my bad, sincerest apologies

Your apology is accepted, but I'd rather you just educate yourself. Obviously higher pay would have to come out of taxes. Have you seen the pay we're talking about, though. People act like these people are making bank and we're paying for it. They're not. And I fail to see where service reductions come in.

 

[Tom Ace]

unions bring higher prices and taxes for the average american.
taxes for ps unions to cover thier costs,
prices for private sector companies to cover the costs.

Yes, imagine that. We actually have to pay these people decent wages. I guess you're right. We should really just keep their pay where it is, and not let them organize to keep it at standard levels. That's a good call.

Again, it's just amazing to me how good conservatives are at propaganda that gets people to support ideas that go against those very same people.

 

[mdram]

Yes, imagine that. We actually have to pay these people decent wages. I guess you're right. We should really just keep their pay where it is, and not let them organize to keep it at standard levels. That's a good call.

Again, it's just amazing to me how good conservatives are at propaganda that gets people to support ideas that go against those very same people.

hhmmmm japanese car companies in the us are not union, and produce better less expensive cars then the us. oh and they pay well too

 

[ElasticNinja]

I think the cars issue is more if a cultural problem

 

[byteware]

I think the cars issue is more if a cultural problem

Both Hyundai and Ford assemble their cars in the US.

It's not cultural. It's that non-union shops have the flexibility to do what's best for them, whereas union shops do not.

 

[mdram]

iirc sint boeing building its new plant in a right to work state to allow non union workers

 

[Tom Ace]

I disagree, partially.

anything under the poverty level is not taxed, and your income minus your taxes cannot be below the poverty line.

Beyond that, disposable income is disposable income and should be taxed at the same rate.

That's not quite true. You're generally not going to pay taxes on anything under about $9,000, but the poverty level is over $10,000. But let's set aside the technicalities. Basically, as a single person, you can definitely expect to pay at least some taxes starting at $10,000, even if not below, and at $25,000 for a family of four. That's still pretty low to consider anything above it disposable income.

Also, the main point is that not all income is equally valuable. Taking $5,000 from someone making $50,000 is a great deal different from taking $50,000 from someone making $500,000. That's the concept behind the progressive tax, and that's why it's the only reasonable option.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Both Hyundai and Ford assemble their cars in the US.

It's not cultural. It's that non-union shops have the flexibility to do what's best for them, whereas union shops do not.

I was reffering to design and consumer choice
look at how many Americans buy unnecessarily massive APCs, sorry SUVs, that are crappily built
a trend which tragically has spread to Ireland. sob

 

[Crude]

This thread needs to die. Most people here can't see the trees for the forest.

 

[mdram]

This thread needs to die. Most people here can't see the trees for the forest.

something we agree on

 

[Tom Ace]

Both Hyundai and Ford assemble their cars in the US.

It's not cultural. It's that non-union shops have the flexibility to do what's best for them, whereas union shops do not.

Myth No. 7: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid

Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.


The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.


Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.


7 Myths about Detroit Automakers

 

[mdram]

the uaw disagrees with you

Wages and Labor Costs | UAW

n 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.

 

[byteware]

That's not quite true. You're generally not going to pay taxes on anything under about $9,000, but the poverty level is over $10,000. But let's set aside the technicalities. Basically, as a single person, you can definitely expect to pay at least some taxes starting at $10,000, even if not below, and at $25,000 for a family of four. That's still pretty low to consider anything above it disposable income.

Also, the main point is that not all income is equally valuable. Taking $5,000 from someone making $50,000 is a great deal different from taking $50,000 from someone making $500,000. That's the concept behind the progressive tax, and that's why it's the only reasonable option.

Progressive tax is the only reasonable option, because Rich people shouldn't be allowed to have that much money.

Progressive taxes make success punitive. The more successful you are, the less of the money you earn that you get to keep. What's the point of earning money?

And FYI, we were talking about what it SHOULD be like, not what it IS like.

 

[byteware]

Myth No. 7: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid

Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.


The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.


Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.


7 Myths about Detroit Automakers

You shouldn't source opinion pieces as fact.

the uaw disagrees with you

Wages and Labor Costs | UAW

n 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole

 

[Bob Maxey]

This thread needs to die. Most people here can't see the trees for the forest.

Perhaps I'll start a new thresd. Rich V. Poor and Taxes.

Bob

 

[jamor]

Welcome to the real world - I don't understand why people that support unions feel that government jobs should be immune to the poor economy while the private sector crumbles?

Do you think you are better than us? More important than us? Reality Check (thank you Wisconsin) - you're NOT.

 

[byteware]

Welcome to the real world - I don't understand why people that support unions feel that government jobs should be immune to the poor economy while the private sector crumbles?

Do you think you are better than us? More important than us? Reality Check (thank you Wisconsin) - you're NOT.

Hey, I'm public sector... and I'm anti public sector union... we aren't better... we aren't more important... but we do hope that our benefits and pay don't get slashed TOO much... (winces)