UN Libyan Resolution

[ElasticNinja]

Just checked out the site, hard right which don't care who's in power as long as they keep as much profits for the US

 

[byteware]

Just checked out the site, hard right which don't care who's in power as long as they keep as much profits for the US

And that invalidates their assessment how?

Take the politics out of your thinking and just look at the facts presented.

 

[ElasticNinja]

And that invalidates their assessment how?

Take the politics out of your thinking and just look at the facts presented.

read the articles Byte.. to be fair I only skimmed a few but it was Hardy that off as a sample

 

[cipher6]

...Yet why has Qatar recognised the secular transitional council as the sole representative of the people of Libya

Given how little time Iran has for Lebanon's secular government...

Because, according to the piece, Iran is pulling for the rebels, because it contains elements of Iranian supported groups. Qatar being aligned with Iran, that would indicated Iran's approval of the rebels operations as well.

With Iran's successful history in diplomatic subterfuge, it should come as no surprise that the U.S. has inadvertently done Iran's bidding in Libya. By aiding Libyan rebels

 

[ElasticNinja]

Because, according to the piece, Iran is pulling for the rebels, because it contains elements of Iranian supported groups. Qatar being aligned with Iran, that would indicated Iran's approval of the rebels operations as well.

according to the piece... given how the rebels are fairly pro western now, I'd doubt they would be happy with them running the shop

Libyan Islamic Fighting Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if that group have any of their fecked up morals they'd be fighting with Gaddafis mercenaries

Can you think and talk in anything other than glossed over stereo-types and generalities? Really. Because the site is business oriented, everything everyone writes on it is automatically false?

You might disagree with the author, fine. But lets hear some reasons why, aside from you don't like the name of the publication printing his piece.

I have little problem with investing, its a pillar of our capitalist system (hedge funds etc I have no time for).. btw my favourite newspaper which i read (at least online the odd time) is the Times... a center right paper, pro business

its just your linked to publication, as I said, read it

 

[cipher6]

according to the piece... given how the rebels are fairly pro western now, I'd doubt they would be happy with them running the shop

The world and Geo-politics is much more complex than you seem to acknowledge....

if that group have any of their fecked up morals they'd be fighting with Gaddafis mercenaries

Uhh... Qaddafi and AQ and other Islamist rebel groups have been at odds for years. Why do you think they would join Qaddafi?

You seem view the rebels through westernized rose colored glasses... They said "democracy," so they must want and believe everything we do huh?

Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".

US and British government sources said Mr al-Hasidi was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG, which killed dozens of Libyan troops in guerrilla attacks around Derna and Benghazi in 1995 and 1996.

Even though the LIFG is not part of the al-Qaeda organisation, the United States military's West Point academy has said the two share an "increasingly co-operative relationship". In 2007, documents captured by allied forces from the town of Sinjar, showed LIFG emmbers made up the second-largest cohort of foreign fighters in Iraq, after Saudi Arabia.
Earlier this month, al-Qaeda issued a call for supporters to back the Libyan rebellion, which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.

Seems like they might be "running the show" after all huh?

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links - Telegraph

Could many of their calls for "secular democracy" be an attempt to gain support from Western governments and their bombs?

 

[ElasticNinja]

The world and Geo-politics is much more complex than you seem to acknowledge....

so all those rebels wasting ammo cheering on the US, UK and France secretly hate them?

Uhh... Qaddafi and AQ and other Islamist rebel groups have been at odds for years. Why do you think they would join Qaddafi?

because his strange idealogy is closer to theirs (of course I don't expect them to join him)

You seem view the rebels through westernized rose colored glasses... They said "democracy," so they must want and believe everything we do huh?

I don't, they have many problems, they overuse propaganda etc
There are enough educated Libyans (at home and abroad) who can make it a functioning democracy

Seems like they might be "running the show" after all huh?

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links - Telegraph

yeah, there are plenty of pro IRA tests in the Irish Army too

Could many of their calls for "secular democracy" be an attempt to gain support from Western governments and their bombs?

you are implying the council has hidden dictatorial aims?
I doubt the rebels would have been supported if they were Marxists

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BTW, this is Eygpt thread all over again

 

[cipher6]

so all those rebels wasting ammo cheering on the US, UK and France secretly hate them?

All? I don't know. Some? probably.

Is it possible they aren't cheering for US, UK and French values and interests, but for the bombs that saved their butts?

because his strange idealogy is closer to theirs (of course I don't expect them to join him)

Why is it so polar with you? They both use some of the same words so they must be aligned in some way? Forget the couple of decades of fighting each other? Qaddafi has a patch work ideology, taking bits of this and bits of that, trying to make everyone some what happy and killing the rest. He's been battling AQ and Islamists since at least the 90's...

I don't, they have many problems, they overuse propaganda etc
There are enough educated Libyans (at home and abroad) who can make it a functioning democracy

That might be, but has nothing to do with your challange of the claim...

that the U.S. has inadvertently done Iran's bidding in Libya. By aiding Libyan rebels

Which is what we were discussing...

What evidence do you have that the western educated Libyans could and would want to "make it a functioning democracy?" Many of the Islamist and AQ leaders are western educated.

How do you define "functioning democracy?" Would a democracy that openly votes to impose harsh religious laws and go to war with any non Islamic country be considered a success in your view?

yeah, there are plenty of pro IRA tests in the Irish Army too

What about the commander of the Irish Army?

Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader...

you are implying the council has hidden dictatorial aims?

I have no idea, I don't know a lot about them, and there hasn't been really good reporting as to exactly who they are and what they want. I think anything they do say, needs to be taken with a grain of salt... it very well could be their trying to gain favor of western governments and the "international community" simply for help fighting Qaddafi.

I doubt the rebels would have been supported if they were Marxists

Who knows... Your assuming the "international community" has a good idea who these guys are... it might be they just really wanted to get rid of Q. Or the fear of instability in the region, and interrupted oil flows, was the over arching factor.


___________

BTW, this is Eygpt thread all over again

Yes, its a recurring issue in the region.

 

[adi19956]

rebel retreat today :/

 

[Dark Jedi]

rebel retreat today :/

Cant win every battle. Retreat today and live to fight another day. Sounds like the rebels surprise attacks are wearing off. Hard to fight a trained military with a group of undisciplined and untrained rebels that has no real battle plan.

Sad thing is when the rebels are about defeated is when the US will send in ground troops and we have another Iraq on our hands.


Why is it every time you see news footage of a middle eastern person with an AK-47 and he see a camera. He has to shoot in the air? Is this what you want running a country anarchy and chaos?

 

[copestag]

read somewhere earlier tonight that some marines were being deployed........ and Clinton still telling everyone she can that we should be arming the rebels (the AlQaida rebels mind you)

 

[Dark Jedi]

read somewhere earlier tonight that some marines were being deployed........ and Clinton still telling everyone she can that we should be arming the rebels (the AlQaida rebels mind you)

well we armed them back in the 70's during their war with Russia in Afghanistan and look what good it did. So why not arm them again. Remember friend of my enemy is my friend.

 

[byteware]

At least it's become obvious that our intervention has nothing to do with protecting civilians, and everything to do with helping the rebels defeat Gaddafi.

 

[ElasticNinja]

its tough for the rebels, they are a mixture of troops and civilian fighters

shame something wasn't done before the mercenaries were flown in... ah well, I guess most Libyans always knew Gaddafi wouldn't be toppled easily

__________

@Cipher... this is the Guy who got an American passenger jet get blown out of the sky

 

[cipher6]

@Cipher... this is the Guy who got an American passenger jet get blown out of the sky

Uh... yeah... He's also funded terrorist groups around the world, and had Libyan dissidents assassinated all over the place... whats your point?

 

[adi19956]

because it's all about the US... William Hague (British Foreign Secretary) said he might consider arming civilians for their protection

It's not really like Iraq. most of the fighting is on one road. Plus Gaddafi has already said he'd consider giving the rebels half the country so he's giving up

 

[ElasticNinja]

lets see how the Italian plan progresses... maybe Burlusconi can co-erse his fellow authoritarian to move on

 

[Dark Jedi]

its tough for the rebels, they are a mixture of troops and civilian fighters

shame something wasn't done before the mercenaries were flown in... ah well, I guess most Libyans always knew Gaddafi wouldn't be toppled easily

__________

@Cipher... this is the Guy who got an American passenger jet get blown out of the sky

Sounds just like the United states had their revolutionary war against the British. The American forces was a mixture of troops and civilians. .

 

[cipher6]

CIA in country now, trying to figure out who the rebels actually are.

In Libya, CIA is gathering intelligence on rebels - The Washington Post


Seems hatred of Qaddafi is the only thing uniting them, not good sign for post-Qaddafi government.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/03/30/world/africa/AP-AF-Libya-Rebel-Goals.html?ref=world

University student Abdel-Salam Rigayi, 23, took advantage of a vacation — imposed by the fighting — to pursue a different dream.

"We want a society based on the Quran," he said, speaking in the formal Arabic tones of a mosque preacher.

"Freedom of religion, we don't want it," he said. "We want the freedom to practice our religion, but we don't want freedom for Jews and Christians and to have naked women and alcohol."

His friend, Mahdi Abu Bakir, 35, wore a bushy beard and a long white robe.

"We want to get rid of that evil thief," he said, meaning Gadhafi, "then unite the Arabs under the motto, There is no God but Allah" — the Muslim declaration of faith.

 

[cipher6]

NATO Warns Rebels Against Attacking Civilians

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/world/africa/01civilians.html

“I don’t know that we have distinguished between civilians who are truly nonparticipants in the conflict and who no one has any right to attack, and those civilians who have taken up arms in revolt against the government and so are legitimate targets,” Mr. Glazier saided. “This is all poorly defined. It really is all about politics, and not at all about law.”

On March 21, in a briefing with reporters, Tom Donilon, the national security advisor to President Obama, appeared not to distinguish between armed rebels and other citizens of Libya who opposed the Qaddafi government.

“They are citizens of Libya, and they are civilians,” he said, referring to the rebels. “They’re not military forces under the direction and control of Qaddafi.”

But that same day, General Carter Ham, the head of United States Africa Command, said that opposition forces with heavier weaponry would not qualify for protection the way civilians would, and he acknowledged that “it’s not a clear distinction, because we’re not talking about a regular military force — it’s a very problematic situation.”

 

[ElasticNinja]

You misread it Cipher, its questioning why the rebels are being protected by NATO like the civilians

 

[cipher6]

You misread it Cipher, its questioning why the rebels are being protected by NATO like the civilians

Did you read the full piece? The headline pretty much sums it up. NATO is worried, when the rebels start forcefully taking cities and towns loyal to Q, they might threaten civilians as well, and if that happens, based on the UN Resolution, they would have to attack the rebels as well.

It all comes back to my initial post:

UN passed a resolution authorizing any means necessary to protect civilians in Libya. And NATO and others are gearing up for attacks soon. (France has been saying in a couple of hours since yesterday.)

Whats interesting, its passed on the reasoning that they are protecting civilians. Its hard to know exactly whats going on, but it seems Qaddafi is fighting an insurrection more than randomly attacking civilians.

Will the UN allow Qaddafi to keep fighting the rebels under strict guidelines that protect civilians? Will the rebels be held to the same standards to protect non-combatants?

Or is this UN resolution to protect civilians, just a cover to allow UN nations to support the rebels in the destruction of Qaddafi's government?

Of course the UN resolution was a cover to help the rebels defeat Qaddafi, but they can't say that. And if rebels start killing Qaddafi supporters, in keeping with their cover story of only protecting civilians, they would have to then drop bombs on the rebels.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Has the UN and other governments as the question. Are the rebels any better than Qaddafi? We help to get rid of one tyrant and we put another one in to power.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I'm pretty sure nearly anyone would be better than Gadaffi.. at least some dictators actually care about their people.. the most important thing is that a stable government is formed with the UNs help, also Libya doesn't half Eygpts money issues

 

[ElasticNinja]

Sorry Cipher, I only read your quote