NYCHitman1
Gun for Hire
Free tethering ftw!
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VZN tethering discussion
- Thread starter Wakeborder556
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- galaxy nexus
I would argue that its not really theft of service because you arent using Verizon's tetbering service. I dont know the technical details... but what is the difference in protocols? Its theft if you use vzw tethering without paying for it... like how one could do on old motorazr v3x with some seem edits and old unlimited data plans...
The best analogy is that you are being sold apples but you can only eat them raw and cant bake them into a pie. However the flaw with a food comparison is that the seller doesnt benefit from unused product. maybe part of the agreement would have to be that you return any unused apples after a month for composting.
The best analogy is that you are being sold apples but you can only eat them raw and cant bake them into a pie. However the flaw with a food comparison is that the seller doesnt benefit from unused product. maybe part of the agreement would have to be that you return any unused apples after a month for composting.
Johndubbya77
Newbie
Its funny because I have showed my phone to several verizon staffers and they havent said anything about tethering programs on my phone... (I DIDNT SAY THE PROGRAM)
breadnatty08
pain rustique
Honestly, as long as folks use it with restrain, I think it's okay.
I would never buy a tablet that requires another contract with constant cell service. If I need to tether my tab or if my internet goes down for a small period, or I'm in a location that doesn't have free wifi, I will. I have a grandfathered unlimited data plan, and I'll use it if I want/need to. Do I use 100gig a month? No.
I would never buy a tablet that requires another contract with constant cell service. If I need to tether my tab or if my internet goes down for a small period, or I'm in a location that doesn't have free wifi, I will. I have a grandfathered unlimited data plan, and I'll use it if I want/need to. Do I use 100gig a month? No.
iowabowtech
root@android:/ #
I don't tether all that often but when I do, I feel zero remorse. Zero.
ya... they don't care... they've suggested tethering apps to me... maybe not specific apps, but they told me apps were available (when I was complaining about vzw data plans).
It's not oranges to apples, though.
I am getting a pipe of data. I can use as much or as little of it as I please. I can also point it where ever I want, as well (for instance, swapping out my sim card into a different device... yes, even a netbook).
Just because they've brainwashed you (and others) that there is some kind of difference where you want to apply the data rate YOU PAY FOR, doesn't mean there is a difference.
Break free people. If you don't fight back, they will continue to unfairly double dip.
the bottom line is that it is breaking their policy to tether without paying for the addon, and it is VZW's responsibility to deal with customers who do so. I personally don't think with low/moderate use of 'policy-breaking' tethering (not illegal) is a problem for them, otherwise they would work harder to block it (plus it might result in many lost customers). If you are on a tiered data plan, then it doesn't matter either way because you aren't using data that you didn't already pay for --- you're just using data in a way that you didn't pay for the privilege of that kind of use. If you are on unlimited data, then just turn the service addon on if you are in a situation where you need to use loads of tethered data ($1 per day --- very fair).
It seems easy enough to use a few gigs of data without tethering... and capped tethered users will easily go over data limits resulting in overage charges.. a win for vzw.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out as the LTE network grows... I wish there were other carriers that could compete better...
What if you used a keyboard that connected to the phone, and using an ap to send video data to another computer to render it on a different screen, and masked all data to look like a non-mobile device... would that be called tethering? So you are not actually tethering a computer directly, but using other accessories to render the video data on an external device...
It seems easy enough to use a few gigs of data without tethering... and capped tethered users will easily go over data limits resulting in overage charges.. a win for vzw.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out as the LTE network grows... I wish there were other carriers that could compete better...
What if you used a keyboard that connected to the phone, and using an ap to send video data to another computer to render it on a different screen, and masked all data to look like a non-mobile device... would that be called tethering? So you are not actually tethering a computer directly, but using other accessories to render the video data on an external device...
at the heart of this issue is whether you are paying for the use of a certain amount of data and if they can actualy restrict how you use that data... its not an easy question to answer, as the data has a time limit on it... ie if you dont use it, you dont keep it... you cant compare it to a physical object... once thats in your posession, its yours.
a bandwidth/data allowance just doesn't fit in the same category...
i think there is a lot of grey area here, which is why vzw hasn't moved on it to come down on policy breakers... I figure tiered plans pretty much fix all vzw's concern.
a bandwidth/data allowance just doesn't fit in the same category...
i think there is a lot of grey area here, which is why vzw hasn't moved on it to come down on policy breakers... I figure tiered plans pretty much fix all vzw's concern.
Johndubbya77
Newbie
Yeah the people in my store know that I live in a rural area and know what I use it for.. They also laugh at the fact that I use so much data
sdrawkcab25
Extreme Android User
You're right, the supplier may not care right away, but other people who want apples may care what you are doing with them if there isn't an unlimited supply to go around and everyone is depending on the same supplier. Your actions affect other people, and if you are hogging all the apples it will cause other buyers to go to a competing apple supplier. If you decide to start an applesauce factory in your basement and hoard all the apples I don't think too many people will be happy.
It's not really about how much data you use or what the data is used for, but more about the rate of consumption. It is a lot easier to consume enormous amounts of data through a PC than it is through a mobile device.
3G/4G bandwidth on any cell site is limited and by limiting tethering and forcing users to pay for it(whether they are overcharging is another topic) prevents people from abusing it and slowing down everyone else's connection. There are plenty of people who abuse tethering(torrent downloading) and sadly it hurts the people who just need to tether so that they can email a document to someone while the power is out. I'd bet that if there was a foolproof way to restrict what is done though tethering it would be substantially cheaper. But then of course the privacy advocates would be up in arms about Verizon monitoring the data passed over the network.
To go back to a food analogy, when you go to an all you can eat buffet, they don't let you take the food home or let you bring in the homeless or the country of Africa just because you paid your $19.99
iowabowtech
root@android:/ #
Note: The following is not aimed at any one user...
I would like take the word "theft" to task as I have seen it used in these discussions on multiple occasions including the PSA found on all the root forums of this site. In order to be considered theft, would there not have to be a legal violation first? If anybody can point to a verifiable link that spells out mobile device tether laws which would support the use of the word theft, I'm interested to see the source. Perhaps it exists, I'm not saying it doesn't. But if it's out there, I've certainly not been able to find it after what seems like a semi-exhaustive effort. Is there in fact any legislation that specifically deals with this issue which has been accepted as law, nationally or otherwise? Honest question.
So if there is no law on the books, how can the word "theft" be used with any validation? If all we have left to make the argument is the TOS, then I think it becomes VERY difficult to justify rooting and it's promotion while condemning tethering. That, in my opinion, is ethical cherry picking, based on emotion and possibly even self righteousness rather than fact and law. I'll admit it sounds very convincing to suggest one is theft and the other is "on you" but is that really true? Just attempting to promote some further thinking through a calm and healthy discussion.
I would like take the word "theft" to task as I have seen it used in these discussions on multiple occasions including the PSA found on all the root forums of this site. In order to be considered theft, would there not have to be a legal violation first? If anybody can point to a verifiable link that spells out mobile device tether laws which would support the use of the word theft, I'm interested to see the source. Perhaps it exists, I'm not saying it doesn't. But if it's out there, I've certainly not been able to find it after what seems like a semi-exhaustive effort. Is there in fact any legislation that specifically deals with this issue which has been accepted as law, nationally or otherwise? Honest question.
So if there is no law on the books, how can the word "theft" be used with any validation? If all we have left to make the argument is the TOS, then I think it becomes VERY difficult to justify rooting and it's promotion while condemning tethering. That, in my opinion, is ethical cherry picking, based on emotion and possibly even self righteousness rather than fact and law. I'll admit it sounds very convincing to suggest one is theft and the other is "on you" but is that really true? Just attempting to promote some further thinking through a calm and healthy discussion.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
I think you have misunderstood something here. Nobody is saying that there is any difference in the type of data you are consuming by mobile browsing or tethering. Data is data. So there isn't any brain washing, as you call it, going on. The discussion at hand is the fact that there is a difference in the service by Verizon (and other carriers) based on the contract that you (as well as everyone else here) signed with them.
Yes, you are getting a pipe of data and you can use as little or as much as you want to, but that data was given to you for a specific purpose and you agreed to that specific purpose when you sign a contract with Verizon. Just because you are allowed an unlimited supply of their product does not mean you can use it in any way you see fit. You are only allowed to use it within the guidelines of the TOS that you agreed to when you signed up for service. Just like any contract you have agreed to the terms set forth by the company that you signed it with. Verizon's contract states that you are not supposed to use their mobile data for tethering. If you are using it for tethering then you are violating the terms of that contract and can be subject to whatever penalties are also listed in that contract. If I remember correctly those include termination of service as well as any early termination fees that may apply. You also run the risk of being throttled for using too much data if that applies (it does for 3G users and with enough abuse it will carry over to 4G users too).
Just because you feel entitled to use your data the way you want doesn't mean that Verizon agrees with you. If by fighting back you are referring to steeling from them, I advise you against it. They really do and will have the final say in the matter. If you mean by fighting back that you should change carriers, they just about all have the same policy.
I don't think connecting other peripherals to your phone would count as tethering. You can add a laptop or desktop dock to several different Motorola devices and I don't believe they count that as tethering.
Exactly. If you don't like the terms then don't sign the contract. If you do sign the contract then live up to the terms you agreed with or risk the consequences of your actions. The fact that Android Forums does not want to be involved with these consequences is the exact reason that we don't allow anyone to discuss ways to violate the contract.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
I have not seen, nor have I looked for, any local or federal laws that deal with something like this specifically. The only laws that I can see here might be contract laws. The reason that the word "theft" is used the way that it is has to do with the tethering service that Verizon as well as other carriers offer. Using Verizon as an example, there is an unlimited tethering package (Wifi Hotspot) that costs roughly $1 a day or $30 a month. This is considered a service by Verizon. The built in wifi hotspot on Verizon phones requires a password and agreement to pay this $30 fee in order to use it. Using any method to circumvent this would be considered theft of service because you are now getting this service without paying for it. Therefore you are more or less stealing $1 a day or $30 a month or $360 a year from Verizon when you use tethering without paying for it. It is just as much theft or piracy as if you were to go out and download a $1 app everyday from some warez site or went into a store and took a candy bar off the shelf and ate it without paying for it. It is theft because you are getting something you did not pay for.
The reason that rooting is viewed differently has to do with the fact that there has been legal discussions about it. The phone belongs to you (assuming you carry out the extent of the contract you signed) and what you do with it is up to you. If you want to root it and void your warranty then there isn't really a legal argument that anyone can make about it.
To make it short and sweet:
Rooting can only hurt you in the end if something goes wrong and you aren't taking anything from anyone. Tethering via "hacking" or outside application takes something without permission and/or compensation.
Crude
Android Expert
I personally think it's theft to advertise unlimited data and then put a cap on it.
Talk to an attorney some time and ask them if a Verizon contract would hold up in court. The answer is always no, because it's so one sided there are laws that protect you against this type of contract BUT the contract is written in a way that you can't even sue for the lopsided contract without arbitration first. Arbitration is essentially a infinite stalemate that is very costly. You can't even take Verizon to small claims if they shut your phone off 3 days into a 2 year contract and billed you for etf.
Lastly, believe it or not Verizon is a monopoly. They can do what they want with impunity until the customers leave and I'm not seeing a whole lot of that.
Back to the topic at hand, I personally do not tether but it doesn't look like either side of the contract here is being totally legal.
Talk to an attorney some time and ask them if a Verizon contract would hold up in court. The answer is always no, because it's so one sided there are laws that protect you against this type of contract BUT the contract is written in a way that you can't even sue for the lopsided contract without arbitration first. Arbitration is essentially a infinite stalemate that is very costly. You can't even take Verizon to small claims if they shut your phone off 3 days into a 2 year contract and billed you for etf.
Lastly, believe it or not Verizon is a monopoly. They can do what they want with impunity until the customers leave and I'm not seeing a whole lot of that.
Back to the topic at hand, I personally do not tether but it doesn't look like either side of the contract here is being totally legal.
Crude
Android Expert
It's the internet, bad analogies, screwed statistics and half truths are the daily grind.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
It is like going into a baseball stadium and asking for a fish on a bicycle. You'll only get one 15% of the time, but then what are you going to do with it?
G.Armour
You know you want to.
Yep, and only on 4G devices, what gives? Why can't I go ahead and start it up on my device now??
Going with the discussion, I was on the phone with a VZW rep the other day, she was telling me that she wished her device was rooted and of so, SHE would tether without paying for it..
Then she proceeded to ask if I knew how, I told her yeah but I would never break my TOS in a kinda sarcastic way. But yeah, she also told me about 2 well known apps in the market (which I already knew about) that makes piracy a breeze.
Now, if VZW is so big and against tethering w/out paying for it, how would one of their reps be asking me how to do it on the phone?? Hmmm...
iowabowtech
root@android:/ #
I understand where you're coming from OTD. The greater point I'm trying to make is that without supporting laws, I'm calling for Verizon to produce the burden of proof. I'm saying they are the brazen ones by adding these additional and separate paid tethering plans when there's nothing illegal about tethering with the minutes we already pay for. That's the whole key to the other side's argument. And it's a significant argument.
Now they did something totally legal to circumvent this whole thing by creating tiered data plans. Fine, I understand that move if it's sole intent was to ward off tethering usage which I highly doubt to be honest. I don't think there's that many people out there using large sums of data due to tethering but I don't have any statistics to prove that point so I digress.
The whole issue here is the belief by some that shotgunning data from your phone to another device constitutes stealing. And there are others who believe that we signed up for unlimited data and that data is being charged to the phone so all is well. Tethering is not something new. Tethering was around when the idea of phones and unlimited data plans were implemented. So in my opinion, vzw decided they wanted to change the rules midstream, having known about this potential all along. And they did so by tiering the plans and then by just randomly deciding to add a standalone tether package like it somehow is a legitimate service. I don't think it is legitimate until and unless the law requires that data cannot be tethered to another device. How can anyone call it theft or piracy if there are no anti-piracy laws that pertain to tethering in the first place?
Pirating music, software, etc is an entirely different ballgame. In that event, a person is getting a totally free and stolen item without paying a dime. There are laws to prevent that and that is indeed theft. In the tethering argument however, we ARE paying for data so I'm missing the correlation entirely. When this whole thing is truly and entirely boiled down, I just don't see how a legitimate anti-tether argument can be made unless the premise is based on emotion, opinion, individual perception or a combination thereof rather than law and reality. I would add that if legal documentation can be provided, or if laws are changed in the future to specifically address this issue, I will immediately abstain from participating in tethering and would then completely understand it's being wrong. Until then, I'm reminded of a phrase my mother used to say way back when I was a young man..."If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you do it to"? And by the way, that was a long time ago in my case.
callmeox
Android Enthusiast
Verizon is not one employee and one employee is not Verizon. Don't take the actions of one employee and extrapolate that into "VZW is ok with this."
Rogue CSRs aside, the official policy is in the TOS. Tethering requires a separate data plan.
G.Armour
You know you want to.
Yeah but if it were so wrong, wouldn't she have been risking her job talking to me about it on the phone?
Can anyone answer the question about how vzw tethering is different from a 3rd party tether app? What is the difference in protocol? When vzw 4G was down, I couldnt use vzw tethering on 4G or 3G but 3rd party apps still worked fine (on 3G). So there has to be some difference in protocol. If you are using a tether service other than vzw's, then you aren't stealing from vzw. Its not a question of stealing data... it is a question of accessing a service unauthorized. If the third party apps dont use vzw tethering service, then there may be more wiggle room... again the technical details mattet about the intricacies of how these apps work.
Anyway... im sure vzw could block it if they really wanted too... it all comes down to a cost analysis... it probably cost them more to enforce than its worth. Plus a small group will almost always find workarounds...
Anyway... im sure vzw could block it if they really wanted too... it all comes down to a cost analysis... it probably cost them more to enforce than its worth. Plus a small group will almost always find workarounds...
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
While an employee may work for Verizon and represent Verizon on the surface they are not Verizon as a corporation. There are plenty of employees that steal from their company and I doubt Verizon is immune to that. I've had plenty of reps in stores and on the phone ask me about rooting, custom ROMs, tethering and even VOIP. I will typically give them some information, but I'm not going to start giving out information about tethering to anyone. She could have just been throwing out bait to see if you would take it and she could then report you for it. Seeing as all their calls are recorded "for quality assurance" I would advise against offering up any information like that. Unlike a forum, which provides a certain amount of anonymity, they know exactly who you are.
I understand where you're coming from OTD. The greater point I'm trying to make is that without supporting laws, I'm calling for Verizon to produce the burden of proof. I'm saying they are the brazen ones by adding these additional and separate paid tethering plans when there's nothing illegal about tethering with the minutes we already pay for. That's the whole key to the other side's argument. And it's a significant argument.
Now they did something totally legal to circumvent this whole thing by creating tiered data plans. Fine, I understand that move if it's sole intent was to ward off tethering usage which I highly doubt to be honest. I don't think there's that many people out there using large sums of data due to tethering but I don't have any statistics to prove that point so I digress.
The whole issue here is the belief by some that shotgunning data from your phone to another device constitutes stealing. And there are others who believe that we signed up for unlimited data and that data is being charged to the phone so all is well. Tethering is not something new. Tethering was around when the idea of phones and unlimited data plans were implemented. So in my opinion, vzw decided they wanted to change the rules midstream, having known about this potential all along. And they did so by tiering the plans and then by just randomly deciding to add a standalone tether package like it somehow is a legitimate service. I don't think it is legitimate until and unless the law requires that data cannot be tethered to another device. How can anyone call it theft or piracy if there are no anti-piracy laws that pertain to tethering in the first place?
Pirating music, software, etc is an entirely different ballgame. In that event, a person is getting a totally free and stolen item without paying a dime. There are laws to prevent that and that is indeed theft. In the tethering argument however, we ARE paying for data so I'm missing the correlation entirely. When this whole thing is truly and entirely boiled down, I just don't see how a legitimate anti-tether argument can be made unless the premise is based on emotion, opinion, individual perception or a combination thereof rather than law and reality. I would add that if legal documentation can be provided, or if laws are changed in the future to specifically address this issue, I will immediately abstain from participating in tethering and would then completely understand it's being wrong. Until then, I'm reminded of a phrase my mother used to say way back when I was a young man..."If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you do it to"? And by the way, that was a long time ago in my case.
I agree with some of what you said here. Tethering has been around for quite a while and many were doing it long before Verizon ever had a plan for it. I also think that people should be able to use data the way that they want to. However, they have added the plan now and the do have it in the TOS that the plan is required. If you have signed a new contract between now and then you have agreed to the new terms.
Are you paying for data? Yes, you are. The difference is that the terms you agreed to state that that data is for use by your mobile phone. It also clearly states that you are not supposed to use your phone as a modem unless you are paying for broadband connect. If you're not paying for broadband connect and you tether then you are taking something from someone without compensation.
Analogy warning:
Think about smoking. Decades ago, everyone did it. You could smoke in restaurants, bars, schools, hospitals, etc. and nobody said a word. Now, in most places you can't even smoke indoors or even within a 20 foot radios of those doors. What happened that made smoking any different now compared to back then? Understanding changed. Illnesses and death became synonymous with smoking so people stopped doing it. Smoking didn't change really, perceptions and understanding of the consequences changed. It is the same with everything else in the world. People reach an understanding that something isn't ok and public opinion changes to accommodate that.
There are plenty of things out there like this that don't have specific laws for or against them, but it doesn't make it ok to do it. A decade or so ago there weren't any laws (to my knowledge anyway) about P2P sharing music. Most people viewed it to be the same thing as copying a tape or CD for a friend only amplified. Fast forward a few years and Napster gets shut down. Laws are set in place and a whole bunch of people start getting in trouble. What changed? Did the act of downloading music somehow become different overnight? No, it was and still is the exact same act. Now there is just legal president that says it is wrong. So now people accept the fact that it is wrong, but it is still the exact same thing as it has always been. Nothing really changed about what was or is happening. They just added laws and punishment for doing it. The same thing happened with software, movies, TV shows, alcohol, marijuana, child abuse, etc. None of the acts changed, people just decided that there was a problem and laws were set in place to stop them.
Legislation doesn't change the act it just adds a consequence for getting caught. Not having a law against something doesn't make something ok, it just doesn't give consequences for your actions. The only difference here is there is a consequence. You can get your service terminated and charged an ETF or you can get X amount of money tacked onto your bill. Just because they aren't going to lock you up for doing something doesn't mean that what you are doing is all sunshine and roses.
