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welfare

Dark Jedi said:
Do like the military does. Physically watch them pee in a cup. Theres no honor system when it comes to drug testing.
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Last time I checked only military and gov't employees could be forced to have someone watch them pee, so you'd have a precedent to overcome, not saying I don't agree.
 
Tempusfugit said:
Last time I checked only military and gov't employees could be forced to have someone watch them pee, so you'd have a precedent to overcome, not saying I don't agree.[/
quote] they do work for the government. The government pays them to sit on their lazy ass and make babies. They get government medical as in the form 9f Medicaid. So they can be looked upon as a type of government employees.
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shadowninty said:
wow.. lotta hate for the unemployed here.. it could happen to you (unless you have a cosy public sector job :p)
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welfare and unemployment are 2 entirely different things..... nobody is suggesting that those drawing an unemployment check are bad..... its those people who have never worked a day in their life......... those people who on high school career day decided they wanted to be a baby factory and live off the government

Ive relayed the story many times in my life but not sure if I ever have on these forums.... so heres what shaped my view of welfare:


many years ago when I was a kid (in my early 20s)..... my wife and I had 2 children..... we were both going to school.... both working a full time job.... and barely gettin by... and I mean barely..... so we are at the grocery store one day.... tryin to fill our cart with enough food to last us and feed our family...... watchin every penny....... barely anything in our cart as we couldnt afford much.. and the stuff we had was essentials and cheapo......

so we get to the checkout line and theres a lady in front of us.... I wont mention anything specific about her as not to stereotype....... she had 4 carts full of groceries.....one was filled top to bottom with expensive meats.... steaks, lambchops, crablegs, etc etc...... she gets to the cashier and pays in food stamps....... over $1000.....

by the time we checked out all her stuff was finally bagged and she/her kids were pushing the carts out to the parking lot.....

once in the parking lot my wife and I loaded our groceries into our jilopy that we could barely afford......... and the lady loaded all her groceries into the trunk and backseat of her brand spankin new(still had the temp tags) Jaguar

and that very clearly made up my mind what kind of people live on welfare
 
Up to about two years ago there were many people on welfare like that too... I guess its just the case that the government has too much money and/or just doesn't care.
Perhaps if there was greater administration much of this would be solved.. our government got rid of about 3% of people due to scamming the system.
The lazy welfare drainer people will be just as lazy at work in most cases, just because of them you cant deny welfare to those who need it
 
copestag said:
welfare and unemployment are 2 entirely different things..... nobody is suggesting that those drawing an unemployment check are bad..... its those people who have never worked a day in their life......... those people who on high school career day decided they wanted to be a baby factory and live off the government

Ive relayed the story many times in my life but not sure if I ever have on these forums.... so heres what shaped my view of welfare:

Op
many years ago when I was a kid (in my early 20s)..... my wife and I had 2 children..... we were both going to school.... both working a full time job.... and barely gettin by... and I mean barely..... so we are at the grocery store one day.... tryin to fill our cart with enough food to last us and feed our family...... watchin every penny....... barely anything in our cart as we couldnt afford much.. and the stuff we had was essentials and cheapo......

so we get to the checkout line and theres a lady in front of us.... I wont mention anything specific about her as not to stereotype....... she had 4 carts full of groceries.....one was filled top to bottom with expensive meats.... steaks, lambchops, crablegs, etc etc...... she gets to the cashier and pays in food stamps....... over $1000.....

by the time we checked out all her stuff was finally bagged and she/her kids were pushing the carts out to Opthe parking lot.....

once in the parking lot my wife and I loaded our groceries into our jilopy that we could barely afford......... and the lady loaded all her groceries into the trunk and backseat of her brand spankin new(still had the temp tags) Jaguar

and that very clearly made up my mind what kind of people live on welfare
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Those people were probably drug dealers, not actual welfare recipients. What they do is buy all the crackheads food stamps for 50
 
Child benefit and tax allowances were introduced for a very good reason... I wonder what would happen is it was remobed
 
shadowninty said:
Child benefit and tax allowances were introduced for a very good reason... I wonder what would happen is it was remobed
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What would happen is a lot of politicians would lose their jobs, which is why that will never happen. If people decide to have children, thats great. I like kids as much as the next person, but why should I have to pay for it? You'll never hear one of these so-called anti-government republicans take a stand on that, because most people have kids, and they won't give up their government handout. Even the tea-baggers won't touch that one.
 
shadowninty said:
wow.. lotta hate for the unemployed here.. it could happen to you (unless you have a cosy public sector job :p)
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I just recently got a job after being underemployed for a very long time.(99ers ain't got nothin on me). Not once did I feel entitled to some check for the government. Occasionally thoughts of a guaranteed low interest loan(I didn't even want the 1/4% banks are getting, just 5 grand at 2-3 to help me out of a rut) being a nice thing would pop in my head, but I just scrimped and saved and took odd jobs for friends and family, and put ads on craigslist and the pennysaver for random stuff that I normally wouldn't have worked. I'm in IT by trade but this last underemployment stint has seen me as a poolman, mowing lawns, building fences, laying wood floors, and well almost anything you could think of besides working the corner or an actual steady paying job.

A friend of mine just put an ad on craigslist for a job and got 200 resumes in the first hour. I spent an average of 6 hours a day for a year when I first became unemployed without getting a job. Ya its tough out there, but after being beat down like that, if I had welfare or extended extended extended unemployment, I would have stopped looking for a job, no question.
 
Listen guys. There has been some gross sterotyping going regarding those on the wellfare system. Not everyone on wellfare is trying to freeload. In fact, I knew two people that took the government's help when they needed it and got right back into work when they could. One of those guys is mkaing $85K+ a year now, and is a tax payer like the rest of us. Without a system in place he would have been homeless for at least three months (well he could have moved in with us, but you get the point).

EDIT: Forgive me for melding wellfare with unemployment here. I think we should still consider how we speak of those on wellfare. Not everyone is here to abuse the system I am sure.
 
Gmash said:
What would happen is a lot of politicians would lose their jobs, which is why that will never happen. If people decide to have children, thats great. I like kids as much as the next person, but why should I have to pay for it? You'll never hear one of these so-called anti-government republicans take a stand on that, because most people have kids, and they won't give up their government handout. Even the tea-baggers won't touch that one.
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The simple reason this exists is for the sake of the child. Someone decides to have a kid and has no money to take care of him/her. Without programs like this the helpless child has to suffer.
 
lordofthereef said:
The simple reason this exists is for the sake of the child. Someone decides to have a kid and has no money to take care of him/her. Without programs like this the helpless child has to suffer.
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Sad thing it most thats on the welfare system. The child still suffers as the parent(s) dont like to share. If they have to give some to their child. Then they have less for them selves. I have seen these people eat steak while their child eat potted meat or roman noodles.

I know there are a few that use the programs to help them selves. Sad to say there is far more that abuses the system. I say there should be a time limit on welfare like there is on unemployment.
 
Dark Jedi said:
Sad thing it most thats on the welfare system. The child still suffers as the parent(s) dont like to share. If they have to give some to their child. Then they have less for them selves. I have seen these people eat steak while their child eat potted meat or roman noodles.

I know there are a few that use the programs to help them selves. Sad to say there is far more that abuses the system. I say there should be a time limit on welfare like there is on unemployment.
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Well, like I said, what the program is there for and what it may be used for can be two vastly different things. I think it's pretty apparent that the system is flawed. The problem is how to change it. Somehow require parents to show that their children are receiving the benefits? A little bit of this goes back to another statement I have made. Anyone can decide to have a child. Far fewer people are considered "qualified" to adopt. There is certainly a double standard here.
 
lordofthereef said:
Well, like I said, what the program is there for and what it may be used for can be two vastly different things. I think it's pretty apparent that the system is flawed. The problem is how to change it. Somehow require parents to show that their children are receiving the benefits? A little bit of this goes back to another statement I have made. Anyone can decide to have a child. Far fewer people are considered "qualified" to adopt. There is certainly a double standard here.
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Of course the system is flawed. Any program started by the Gov is flawed. How you make it better is to get rid of the program. All it does is show people you can get something from doing absolutely nothing. Or better yet how about make these people work like clean up the city or county where they live. We pay them anyways so why not make them earn it. If they refuse? Well they lose their benefits plain and simple. If they preform poorly then they lose their benefits. Treat it just like a job.

How will you make them prove the kids are enjoying the money when the social workers are understaffed as it is.
 
batgeek said:
haaaaaaaaahahahahaaaahahaahahaaaaahahahaha!
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I really don't want to hurt your feelings batgeek and shadowninty but,

What is so funny?

Why are some people so immature and disrespectful?

And then shadowninty thanks the person for being silly and mocking someone?

Do you have no honour?

Hell I can be a real jerk at times too... but once I realize what I have done I really do try hard to apologize and make up for it. I can be a real serious fool / jerk at times... we all make mistakes. It is only human.

And I really really really do understand how hard it is to be understanding at times, trust me I do - espicially when you feel so strongly about something wether it be poltical, religious or whatever, but try to be more caring / understanding. Trust me, I know it is hard but being caring it is always the best way to go.

And i still think you guys are really cool people and I think any less of you at all, you guys are awesome and I hope you don't dislike me for what I said.

I apologize if I have hurt you.

But to get back to the topic, I personally think welfare can have really good and really bad elements to it.

I think it all depends on the majority of the culture of the people of a country.

In South Africa where the work ethic and basic culture is digusting / disturbing it is not a good idea... infact it is just down right dangerous and has been a total failure and a burden on the rest of the hard working citizens in South Africa here. This has been proven today in SA. Our country is a mess and on the brink of a Zimbabwe scene (white farmers and other white people being killed in the millions by Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe)... and we are one of the biggest welfare states in the world...

SA world's biggest welfare state: Fin24: Economy

And in a very hard working / honourable country... take Japan for example where everyone is quite honourable and hard working, I don't think there will be a problem with welfare, but I am not too sure if they even have welfare for that matter. I think they do, but they are a very successful nation today.

But of course there will be little problems with any system...no matter what some people will abuse the system whenever and where ever they can.

Keep well

Regards

Stinky
 
shadowninty said:
as we keep saying, the aftermath of keeping a large proportion of the population down for centuries suxs dude
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First of all... Apartheid was not 100's of years / centuries in time as you claim. It was from 1948 - 1993 ... not centuries...like you said.

What I was trying to say is that the culture of the Japanese people are that of honour and respect...and all I was trying to say is if we compare the 2 cultures (South Africa and Japan) then we can clearly see that because of the good culture of the Japanese people... they are very successful and hard working people.

However because of the poor / nasty culture of the people of SA... our country is complete failure and welfare is dangerous here.

If we had a better culture of the general population then... we would have a successful country but sadly we do not.

That is why I say the culture of a civilization is vital when discussing things like welfare.

If the general population are scum / have a bad culture then welfare is very bad idea like SA here... however if the general popultion has a good culture and hard work and honour is valued above everything else like Japan... then welfare for the physically disabled, mentally disabled and general poor is a great idea.

That is what I was tryinh to say.
 
you wont get a culture of respect without eductation and you wont get good eductation without helping families who need it
 
Dark Jedi said:
Of course the system is flawed. Any program started by the Gov is flawed. How you make it better is to get rid of the program. All it does is show people you can get something from doing absolutely nothing. Or better yet how about make these people work like clean up the city or county where they live. We pay them anyways so why not make them earn it. If they refuse? Well they lose their benefits plain and simple. If they preform poorly then they lose their benefits. Treat it just like a job.

How will you make them prove the kids are enjoying the money when the social workers are understaffed as it is.
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I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree that the only way to better a program created by the government is to get rid of it. Without government programs I certainly would not be in school right now with a bachelor's under my belt and a Veterinary degree in my near future.

The examples you made where people are required to work sound great to me. That doesn't mean the program is trash... it simply needs reform. The program is there to help people in need. Clearly people are abusing it. So REFORM the program such that it cannot be so blatantly abused. It won't happen overnight. Hell, it may take dosens of years. But scrapping it alltogether is not the way to go.
 
lordofthereef said:
I don't think education and respect are necessarily one in the same. Some of the poorest, least educated groups of people are the nicest most respectful people, at least where I grew up.
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they will be respectful of their kind sure, but often not others as they no not enough about them nor understand
 
shadowninty said:
they will be respectful of their kind sure, but often not others as they no not enough about them nor understand
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Maybe we have different definition of education, and perhaps humans alltogether. I am not even certain what you mean by "their kind". We are all human, are we not? Therefor there kind is my kind is your kind. Am I missing something here?
 
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