welfare

[lordofthereef]

I am saying most and not all. My conclusion is called life. I watched, I listened to these people. A poll is about as accurate as telling the Horsepower and Torque of a car from the Butt dyno method. Not to reliable now is it.

I know people that make similar conclusion about african-americans, that they will all rob you in a dark alley. I can say from personal experience that this is not the case. I have only met one such person that fell into that stereotype. It's all about where/how you are raised. I find it hard to believe that you are willing to make conclusions about those that rely on some form of wellfare having lived in two out of the fifty states (and I say states, but how many cities in each state are we talking now) in the US. I guess 2/50 is a high enough statistic for you to make that unfortunate conclusion?

 

[Dark Jedi]

I know people that make similar conclusion about african-americans, that they will all rob you in a dark alley. I can say from personal experience that this is not the case. I have only met one such person that fell into that stereotype. It's all about where/how you are raised. I find it hard to believe that you are willing to make conclusions about those that rely on some form of wellfare having lived in two out of the fifty states (and I say states, but how many cities in each state are we talking now) in the US. I guess 2/50 is a high enough statistic for you to make that unfortunate conclusion?

I hope you are not calling me a racist? As that can get ugly fast. You want to know how many states I have lived in? Lets see Washington State, South carolina, New York State, Louisiana, Texas, Even the District of Columbia, I have visited England. Anything else you would like to know?

I am sorry if you live in what you think is a perfect world and these poor souls wish they could get away from the evils of welfare and have a good job working 40hrs a week. Be a contributor to society. Boy I wish I could live in your world.

YouTube - Coca-Cola HILLTOP I'd Like To Teach The World To Sing

This coke is for you.

 

[lordofthereef]

You completely misunderstood what I was saying my friend. I was simply comparing your statements about everyone that is on wellfare to statements from people who I personally know make about african-americans. Stereotypes have some truth to them, which is why they become sterotypes to begin with. In short, I feel you are stereotyping everyone that utilizes wellfare.

I don't think I live in a perfect world or place (you must have missed the part where I said I was *THIS* close from living on the street as a kid).

I questioned where you have lived only because you stated two states in which the welfare situation was the same and are lumping this group of people into one pile - one where they are all lazy and not wanting to work. I still question exactly how many of these people you come across. Having asked that, do you for some reason surround yourself with wellfare users everywhere you go?
No need to put up the defenses here. This is just a friendly conversation among friendly people right?

EDIT: Will watch the vid when I get home. No sound on the work PC

 

[Dark Jedi]

You completely misunderstood what I was saying my friend. I was simply comparing your statements about everyone that is on wellfare to statements from people who I personally know make about african-americans. Stereotypes have some truth to them, which is why they become sterotypes to begin with. In short, I feel you are stereotyping everyone that utilizes wellfare.

I don't think I live in a perfect world or place (you must have missed the part where I said I was *THIS* close from living on the street as a kid).

I questioned where you have lived only because you stated two states in which the welfare situation was the same and are lumping this group of people into one pile - one where they are all lazy and not wanting to work. I still question exactly how many of these people you come across. Having asked that, do you for some reason surround yourself with wellfare users everywhere you go?
No need to put up the defenses here. This is just a friendly conversation among friendly people right?

EDIT: Will watch the vid when I get home. No sound on the work PC

Then I apologize as I thought you was going there. WHen I was a kid money was tight and didnt live in the best section of town. So I hung out with the rest of the poor kids. So I got a first hand look into the welfare system and how many of these people abuse this system. I have seen the brand new caddies in the driveway and the nice clothes the parents would have but the kids wore old clothes. Its hard when my friends ask how I have nice clothes. I tell them my parents bought them. They then tell me how their parent (s) buys them old used clothing or freebees while they buy themselves new clothes. Or when they came over to my house and I ask them if they wanted a drink. They automatically say Kool Aid. I look at them and say dont you want a coke? They looked at me like I was breaking the golden rule. As they could only have the Kool aid as the soft drinks was only for their parent(s) I could go on forever about what I have seen growing up. I have never nor my parent was never on welfare.

Yes its a friendly conversation but when I thought I saw where you was going I was like oh great going to get the card thrown on me.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I know people that make similar conclusion about african-americans, that they will all rob you in a dark alley. I can say from personal experience that this is not the case. I have only met one such person that fell into that stereotype.

But, in some areas of some cities, it is a safe bet that if you are going to be robbed or killed, chances are, it will be at the hands of those of African decent. Or white, or Muppets or Hispanic. That is to say, if you live in or visit South Central LA. Here in Salt Lake, quite likely, it will be whites because there are more whites here than blacks. Unfortunately, ALL blacks are painted with the same brush.

Depends upon where you live and where you go. There are some places you dare not go if you are white because it might not end well. Or if you are black, it might not end well. Or if you just happen to be there at the wrong time, your color makes no never mind.

My only seriously dreadful personal experience with astonishing brutality at the hands of OTW bastards can be found by Googling "Ogden Hi-Fi Shop Murders." My second experience was with three blacks that entered my garage and stole a bunch of stuff.

I know it is unfair to judge, but sometimes, it is easy.

Bob

 

[Member243850]

Still, you are generalizing. Are you literally saying that every single person who has collected a wellfare check did so because they were lazy and unwilling to work?

I totally agree with you lordofthereef friend.

I don't expect you people from the 1st world from America and other 1st world countries to understand this true story I am about to tell but here goes...

I have a first hands on experience and with what I am about to say.

I have a black friend called Margaret who is the most hard working person I have ever met.

But before I had ever met or known about Margaret she came ringing our front gate door bell looking for a job / work or employment...

Now I don't mean to disrupt the story but bear in mind in South Africa we have electric fences... barbed wire, our windows are barred up with metal bars and big dogs to keep our selves safe from being murdered etc. and that is not a joke. I am not joking at all with what i said there... that is the simply the truth, so we were very cautious when letting Margaret into our house from knocking at our front gate ringing the door bell.

We get a lot of beggers in South Africa and our crime rate is very highly ranked in the world I think we were 2nd at one point

Any ways I wil try be short and to the point,

Margaret was very desperate and was totally looking for work or employment as a house maid... and NOT looking for a free hand out or begging.

She funny enough was looking for employment or work basically.

My father was still very cautious but was actually impressed with this and if I recall said very wisely:

"We really don't need a maid in the house ... but why don't you give me a number or address or somthing I can contact you in and I will get back to you?"

Margaret was very happy to hear this and obviously said "Yes! I will give you my address because I don't have a telephone."

Margaret then gave my father her address...

But there was something about her that I found was very impressive. The way Margaret spoke was different. Margaret spoke with leaps abd bounds of faith... I believed she was something special / unique back then before i knew Margaret.

Back then my father did not want to employ her... and I understand why - crime is high in South Africa so Dad said "Margaret might steal something in the house when she comes to work here"

I eventually convinced my father to give her a job.

And boy was I right and my father was totally wrong!

Margaret is one of the most hard working people I have ever met... wow she is a hard working person!

If any one deserves welfare money then I believe it is Margaret.

But to this day she does not execpt / take any welfare money AT ALL.

I just wish to hell she would take the damn welfare money she is supposed to get and deserves and stop being so damn and too proud to take welfare money.

She deserves welfare money... but she is too proud to take it even though she works her ass off! I try to convince her... anywayz.

So my father was so impressed with Margaret's work ethic that he decided to pay for Margaret's Daughter (Londiswe) schooling and eduction.

Londiswe goes to a private school.

Margaret has been working with us for about 10 years and is now part of the family and we are great friends today even though she is too proud to accept welfare money.

So ja I agree with you lordofthereef that there are VERY hard working people in the world that deserve welfare money...

However... I think in a much richer country like the USA for example... where people have a lot more money... I think it is a bad idea to have welfare. It can encourage laziness

Anywayz

I hope you people can i understand what I was trying to say because I am not the best with words!

Keep well

Regards

Stinky

 

[cipher6]

The thing is, neither you, nor I, know the specific circumstances behind a person's situation and where they are in life. I don't think that everyone that reaches out for help is simply lazy or not trying hard enough. If you do, well, I guess I have nothing else to say on the matter.

I'm not saying everyone that gets help is lazy, thats the point of comparing it to drug rehab. Those programs, drug and welfare are great, and have helped many people and saved many lives. But they are just tools to help you, they won't fix you. A drug addict going into rehab, that doesn't really want to change and clean up, all the rehab in the world isn't going to help them. But someone who does want to change, and wants to work at getting better, those programs can save their life. Same with welfare, some people end up in a bad spot, with bad luck, and welfare and government assistance, can give them the bit of safety net they need to survive while getting back on their feet. But all the government assistance in the world won't give someone the work ethic they need to work their way out of welfare... which can be done with hard work.


My story:

Starting sweeping floors in the shop of an Environmental engineering firm out of high school. Swept floors, helped load equipment, carried things around in the field.

In 7th grade, I took a drafting course instead of shop class, learned paper drafting and more useful, starting learning AutoCAD (Computer drafting)

Was somewhat familiar with the software, so they let me start doing simple things.

took the time to teach myself more, as I got better at using AutoCAD and understanding the things they were doing. As I learned more they gave me more to do.

Eventually became the main design/drafter, doing big projects like landfill design. Engineer would give me specs, sizes, slopes, etc. and I would design and produce all construction documents.

Also started working in the field as lead QA/QC inspector during construction, I was so familiar with the design I was a good QC guy. Long hours, in the field with no complaints, working 7/12 or more.

That company went under, so I took my self taught skills and moved to Civil design/drafting. Learned the ins and outs of that, and became one of the lead designers. Get specs from engineers, draw up complete construction documents.

Learned all the new software and techniques coming out, lead the implementation and switch from ACAD to ACAD Civil3d.

Got a better offer with a Oil and Gas company, got here, and saw the need for GIS. So, I trained myself in ArcGIS, software and techniques, I'm now the GIS administrator building an enterprise database from scratch and implementing some really cool things. Getting raises along the way... all with no degree.

My wife, grew up poor with a single mom. She put herself through school, with the outstanding loans to prove it. Now he is a geologist at the same oil and gas company I work at, making more than me.

Over the last few years, we've gotten married, bought a nice house (were living in a 600 sf shack in the bad part of town) bought a new car (first new car i've ever owned) and had our first child.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I actually don't find your idea to be too harsh, honestly. Let's take the "silly" street cleaning examples. Obviously this would be more fitting in some cities than others. I come from a city near Los Angeles (Moorpark), and it is almost spotless. Go into LA and you have plenty of rubbish cleanup available without putting anyone out of a job (and if people are being put out of a job there as a result of this, they weren't really doing the best job to begin with).

I also like the "six month rule", or at least something similar. They should not be supported for the rest of their lives, IMO. This actually gives incentive to NOT work, as has been stated a dozen times over in this thread.

How about change how food stamps work? One should NOT be able to buy New York strip steaks and lobster on food stamps... EVER. AFAIK food stamps work like cash, with restrictions on tobacco, alcohol, and little else. That is a load of BS. They should only be viable as payment for generic brand foods, lower end cuts of meat, etc. (maybe meats is a little harsh... but I think you know where I am going with this).

This next one will be controversial, but maybe a limit on a person's reproductive rights if they want to continue to collect. One should not be able to crank out a small army of children so as to keep gaining money from the government. These are fairly simple surgical procedures to be completely honest. (Yes, this is the absolute extreme, and will probably never happen, but hey, I see it as a better answer than the current system!)

In Utah, you can't purchase tobacco or alcohol with food stamps. And they are no longer issued stamps; they are issued an EBT Card.

I think you should be able to purchase raw ingrediants and no junk food. Just the basics to help you over the hump. In some places, this kind of assistance is generational. Sad that so many families depend on assistance for so many years. We need limits.

What I want to know is what happens after the funds run out. If we decide to limit food stamps, what happens when these people can no longer buy food and they are unqualified for work?

Bob

 

[lordofthereef]

In Utah, you can't purchase tobacco or alcohol with food stamps. And they are no longer issued stamps; they are issued an EBT Card.

I think you should be able to purchase raw ingrediants and no junk food. Just the basics to help you over the hump. In some places, this kind of assistance is generational. Sad that so many families depend on assistance for so many years. We need limits.

What I want to know is what happens after the funds run out. If we decide to limit food stamps, what happens when these people can no longer buy food and they are unqualified for work?

Bob

I ask a simple question. Define unqualified? before we were talking about people being lazy and abusing the system. Surely if you are unqualified it is not because you are lazy (unless I am misunderstanding your meaning). I can honestly say that I have no problem with my tax money going to those less fortunate than I am that don't work because they physically or mentally cannot. For those that just don't want to, that is obviously another story.

 

[lordofthereef]

I'm not saying everyone that gets help is lazy, thats the point of comparing it to drug rehab. Those programs, drug and welfare are great, and have helped many people and saved many lives. But they are just tools to help you, they won't fix you. A drug addict going into rehab, that doesn't really want to change and clean up, all the rehab in the world isn't going to help them. But someone who does want to change, and wants to work at getting better, those programs can save their life. Same with welfare, some people end up in a bad spot, with bad luck, and welfare and government assistance, can give them the bit of safety net they need to survive while getting back on their feet. But all the government assistance in the world won't give someone the work ethic they need to work their way out of welfare... which can be done with hard work.

This is my point. Apparently nobody here is going out and saying this but most are advocating to get rid of the program all together. Certainly these programs won't give anyone work ethic. That is not what they were intended for. I guess the question is how does one decide whether a person is where they are due to a streak of "bad luck" or because they are lazy?

 

[Tempusfugit]

I guess the question is how does one decide whether a person is where they are due to a streak of "bad luck" or because they are lazy?

Maybe one shouldn't decide that, and not help anyone... Oh ya, its sad, people dying and starving, but actively reversing natural selection is a horrible idea, not to mention we have better things to waste money on.

Plus if you're REALLY starving, anyone can walk into a soup kitchen. Although with the obesity rate what it is in America, I highly doubt that many people on welfare are anywhere close to starving.


NOFX - The Idiots Are Taking Over

It's not the right time to be sober
Now the idiots have taken over
Spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?

Mensa membership conceding
Tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
The industrial revolution
Has flipped the bitch on evolution
The benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
The world keeps getting dumber
Insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason

Darwin's rolling over in his coffin
The fittest are surviving much less often
Now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
Now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
And I'm starting to feel a lot like Charlton Heston
Stranded on a primate planet
Apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
With generals and the armies that obeyed them
Followers following fables
Philosophies that enable them to rule without regard

There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
Political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
Majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
Sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

What are we left with?
A nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
Who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
Pass on traditions
How to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture

The idiots are taking over [x8]

 

[cipher6]

NoFX sucks. Just cheezey Vandals wannabes.

 

[EarlyMon]

The cash-strapped MTA may soon put welfare recipients to work scrubbing and cleaning the subways.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority wants to revive its participation in the city's Work Experience Program - which makes the unemployed toil for their benefit checks.

"This is a program that has a proven track record of doing three things: providing low-cost cleaning help for the subway; providing job training to people who need it, and leading directly to full-time employment for many of the people who participate in the program," MTA spokesman Jeremy Soffin said.

The MTA eliminated 173 cleaner positions last year in a series of budget cuts that slashed a total of about 3,500 jobs.

To the 173 laid off in the budget cuts, this looks like they gave their jobs away for free.

Possibly to the honest and disenfranchised - or possibly to lazy drug users.

That is precisely why unions flourish.

The lazy ones won't really work - and the honest ones are doing the same job for less money than the workers were being paid. And what job training? How to clean a subway so you can get hired doing it and then later laid off and replaced by the next welfare slave?

Surprised no one really noticed that.

 

[Tom Ace]

I for one am tired of working my ass off so joe blow can sit at home drinking beer while watching his sports on his 56in plasma tv and not have to worry about punching a clock while I scrape to have nice things.

This is the biggest problem. People have all of these misconceptions. Yes, there are people who take advantage of the system. No, it is not that common. And no, welfare does not pay for a big-screen TV and sitting around drinking beer and watching sports. Welfare pays for food and basic housing. You would not want to live on welfare.

If more people realized the inaccuracy of this kind of comment, we'd be better off in these discussions.

Now, as I said, of course there are people taking advantage of the system. No matter what system you have, that's always going to happen. The question is whether or not you help the 1,000 people who really need and deserve it even if it means also helping 100 people who don't need it, don't deserve it and are taking advantage of the system. To me, it's clear. You help them. Obviously you try to minimize the number of people taking advantage, too.

 

[Tom Ace]

Sure we hear of people looking adversity in the face and rising to success from literally nothing. Those cases are few and far between, and I wouldn't blame them on laziness, non-motivation, etc.

That's an important point that gets missed a lot. The reason we make movies out of stories like The Pursuit of Happyness is that they're rare and special. Yes, it's possible to work your way out of poverty, but it's not easy, and not everyone is capable of it. Some people just aren't cut out for that. I readily admit I have had an easy time of it. I have middle-class parents, have lived in good neighborhoods and went to private schools. My mom also works for the state, so I got free tuition to the state university. I'm white and male, too. I understand that there are a lot of factors making it fairly easy for me to be where I am.

 

[Tom Ace]

I am saying most and not all. My conclusion is called life. I watched, I listened to these people. A poll is about as accurate as telling the Horsepower and Torque of a car from the Butt dyno method. Not to reliable now is it.

It is not most or all. Some people like you see some examples of the one thing, and assume everyone is that way. Other people like me see some examples of it and assume they're some examples of it. The biggest problem is that you'll notice things like that radio show more than examples that discount your opinion. It's sort of like Girls Are Bad at Math.

I prefer to get my information from a hybrid of my experiences and from knowledgeable people on the subject, which includes books. I also like to keep in mind that one examples is just one example, and isn't representative of the whole.

 

[cipher6]

Yes, it's possible to work your way out of poverty, but it's not easy, and not everyone is capable of it. Some people just aren't cut out for that.

I can't explain how ugly I view this kind of thinking as.

To sit around thinking your some special kind of guy, and these poor, savages (minorities) just aren't smart enough or capable of working jobs, so we, because we're so superior, must protect them... Its very close to racism of a different flavor.... I'm an educated white male, so obviously I'm better, smarter and more capable than a minority from the wrong side of the tracts. a few hundred years ago you would want to purchase them as slaves.

No, working your way out of poverty is not easy, life isn't easy, working to keep yourself from going into poverty isn't easy either.

That's an important point that gets missed a lot. The reason we make movies out of stories like The Pursuit of Happyness is that they're rare and special.

NO its not. We've been over the statistics before.

However, 42% of children born in the bottom quintile are most likely to stay there, and another 42% move up to the second and middle quintile[3].

Economic mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

42% of children born in the lowest income quintile move up 1 or 2 quintiles. I wouldn't call that rare.


A guy with no education giving up a decent job to take an unpaid training position at a trading firm (ending up homeless for a time because of that decision) and finally landing a paying gig... yeah, that might be a little rare. But working your way out of poverty is not.

And notice how the movie alters things a bit, to fit this liberal guilt stereotype. I've never seen it, but based on the plot outlines:

In 1981, in San Francisco, Chris Gardner (Will Smith) invests his family's savings in portable bone-density scanners which he tries to demonstrate and sell to doctors. The investment proves to be a white elephant which financially breaks the family and as a result, his wife Linda (Thandie Newton) leaves him and their son Christopher (Jaden Smith) and moves to New York. While downtown trying to sell one of his scanners, Chris meets a manager for Dean Witter and impresses him by solving a Rubik's Cube during a short cab ride. This new relationship earns him the chance to become an intern stockbroker, but he nearly turns it down when the position turns out to be unpaid.

And the real life Chris Gardner:

By 1976, he had been given full responsibility for a laboratory and had co-authored several articles with Dr. Ellis that were published in medical journals

His relationship with Sherry was detached, in part because of his decision to abandon a medical career and also due to differences in their behavior. While still living with Sherry, he began an affair with a dental student named Jackie Medina, and she became pregnant with his child only a few months into the affair. After three years of marriage to Sherry, he left her to move in with Jackie and to prepare for fatherhood. Nine years elapsed before he and Sherry were legally divorced in 1986.[2]
Their son, Christopher Medina Gardner, was born on January 28, 1981. Gardner worked as a research lab assistant at UCSF and at the Veterans' Hospital after leaving the service. His position as a research lab assistant paid only about $8,000 a year which was not enough for him to support a live-in girlfriend and a child. After four years, he quit these jobs and doubled his salary by taking a job as a medical equipment salesman.[8]

A pivotal moment in his life occurred, after a sales call to a San Francisco General Hospital, when he encountered an impeccably-dressed man in a red Ferrari. Curious, Gardner asked the man about his career. The man told him he was a stock broker and, from that moment on, Gardner's career path was decided.[7]

The stockbroker in the red Ferrari was a man named Bob Bridges. He met with Gardner and gave him an introduction to the world of finance. Bridges organized meetings between Gardner and branch managers at the major stock brokerage firms that offered training programs

 

[cipher6]

It is not most or all. Some people like you see some examples of the one thing, and assume everyone is that way. Other people like me see some examples of it and assume they're some examples of it. The biggest problem is that you'll notice things like that radio show more than examples that discount your opinion. It's sort of like Girls Are Bad at Math.

I prefer to get my information from a hybrid of my experiences and from knowledgeable people on the subject, which includes books. I also like to keep in mind that one examples is just one example, and isn't representative of the whole.

Look, I've been poor. Most of my friends are still poor. Nearly everyone I hang out with is poor. And their my buds and I love them to death, but their situation, 9 times out of 10, is their own doing... and they refuse to take the steps necessary to pull themselves out of it.

 

[lordofthereef]

Look, I've been poor. Most of my friends are still poor. Nearly everyone I hang out with is poor. And their my buds and I love them to death, but their situation, 9 times out of 10, is their own doing... and they refuse to take the steps necessary to pull themselves out of it.

Again, you are basing your decision on US policy on a handful of your friends. This just isn't a sampling size big enough to represent the big picture. It literally isn't. Let me put it this way. you may very well be completely right, but your methods of getting to that conclusion are not enough to base law on. THAT is the fact here.

 

[lordofthereef]

Maybe one shouldn't decide that, and not help anyone... Oh ya, its sad, people dying and starving, but actively reversing natural selection is a horrible idea, not to mention we have better things to waste money on.

Plus if you're REALLY starving, anyone can walk into a soup kitchen. Although with the obesity rate what it is in America, I highly doubt that many people on welfare are anywhere close to starving.

A few things here.

First off, humans have redefined natural selection for one animal, that being the human. How is being born into poverty natural selection? Natural selection is being born with biological traits that are more favorable in a population that that of others. Money (or lack of it) isn't really a biological trait. Maybe we should get rid of healthcare as well as that goes against natural selection? Personally, I have more compassion than that, though I am sure there are those that do not.

Obesity and nourishment are two different things. An obese person can die, or shorten their lifespan due to malnutrition. This is essentially one in the same with starving. To be honest, I am not entirely sure why this was even brought up here. I am trying to figure out, are you implying that most/many on well fare are obese? I am not saying you are saying this, but rather trying to understand how obesity comes into play. FWIW, an average adult male that is 20lbs overweight is now considered obese - when you see a guy like this on the street you probably don't think twice, yet clinically (and more importantly statistically, which is where people get these numbers) they are still obese. I'll stop there, as this becomes another topic that I would also be happy to discuss.

 

[cipher6]

Again, you are basing your decision on US policy on a handful of your friends. This just isn't a sampling size big enough to represent the big picture. It literally isn't. Let me put it this way. you may very well be completely right, but your methods of getting to that conclusion are not enough to base law on. THAT is the fact here.

I don't write laws, and haven't proposed any laws based on my personal experience, just relating what I've seen. I have quoted specific data though, that 42% of children born to families in the bottom economic quintile move up to the 2nd or 3rd quintile. That means, moving up and getting out of poverty isn't as rare as some make it seem... and there is plenty more data if you would like it.

 

[cipher6]

Maybe one shouldn't decide that, and not help anyone... Oh ya, its sad, people dying and starving, but actively reversing natural selection is a horrible idea, not to mention we have better things to waste money on.

Plus if you're REALLY starving, anyone can walk into a soup kitchen. Although with the obesity rate what it is in America, I highly doubt that many people on welfare are anywhere close to starving.


NOFX - The Idiots Are Taking Over

It's not the right time to be sober
Now the idiots have taken over
Spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?

Mensa membership conceding
Tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
The industrial revolution
Has flipped the bitch on evolution
The benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
The world keeps getting dumber
Insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason

Darwin's rolling over in his coffin
The fittest are surviving much less often
Now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
Now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
And I'm starting to feel a lot like Charlton Heston
Stranded on a primate planet
Apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
With generals and the armies that obeyed them
Followers following fables
Philosophies that enable them to rule without regard

There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
Political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
Majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
Sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

What are we left with?
A nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
Who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
Pass on traditions
How to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture

The idiots are taking over [x8]

NoFX sucks. Just cheezey Vandals wannabes.

The Vandals: Complain

Some people must have.
Some people have not.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.

Some people will work.
Some simply will not.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.

Like this: It’s society’s fault I don’t have a job.
It’s society’s fault I am a slob.
I have potential no one can see.
Give me welfare. Let me be me!

Hey, Bud, you’re livin’ in the Land of the Free.
No one’s gonna hand you opportunity!

Some people must have.
Some never will.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.

I don’t have a house. I don’t have a car.
I spend all my time drunk in a bar.
I wanna be rich. I don’t have a brain.
Just give me a handout while I complain.

Or this: I wanna stay in bed and watch TV.
Go out weekends in a limousine
And dance all night takin’ lots of drugs
And wake up when I wanna.

Hey, Bud, you’re livin’ in the Land of the Free.
No one’s gonna hand you opportunity!

Some people will learn.
Some never do.
But they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain.
Yeah, they’ll complain and complain and complain and complain and complain

 

[lordofthereef]

I don't write laws, and haven't proposed any laws based on my personal experience, just relating what I've seen. I have quoted specific data though, that 42% of children born to families in the bottom economic quintile move up to the 2nd or 3rd quintile. That means, moving up and getting out of poverty isn't as rare as some make it seem... and there is plenty more data if you would like it.

Oh I wasn't saying it was incredibly rare, I was simply saying that NOT making it out doesn't equate to being lazy, unless of course we are saying that then the other 58% were then lazy and didn't want to work. Furthermore, let's take the 42% of the children you quote. A portion of them were likely helped by the very system people here loath. Who is to say it wasn't this very system that helped some of them get to where they are now?

I am aware you don't write laws, but we are in fact discussing how laws should potentially be changed, are we not? If you take what I said in context, I find that it does make sense. Your view of wellfare seems to be based off of your personal experiences. Your personal experiences may very well not be representative of the norm. That is all.

 

[Tom Ace]

I can't explain how ugly I view this kind of thinking as.

To sit around thinking your some special kind of guy, and these poor, savages (minorities) just aren't smart enough or capable of working jobs, so we, because we're so superior, must protect them... Its very close to racism of a different flavor.... I'm an educated white male, so obviously I'm better, smarter and more capable than a minority from the wrong side of the tracts. a few hundred years ago you would want to purchase them as slaves.

No, working your way out of poverty is not easy, life isn't easy, working to keep yourself from going into poverty isn't easy either.

Wow, that's one weird way of looking at what I said. There are different kinds of people in the world. I'm not even saying I'm better than the poor people who aren't capable of getting out of poverty. I was never poor. And the "I'm an educated white male, so obviously I'm better, smarter..." nonsense indicates that you haven't actually read what I've said. I'm educated and white, which gives me a huge advantage. It doesn't make me better, which is why I want to support the people who don't have those advantages. I specifically said that I understand that I have these advantages that others don't, that I was born into a good, middle-class family, had the opportunity to get a good education and I'm white and male. What I'm saying is the people who don't have those advantages tend to have a hard time in life. Some are cut out to deal with that and get past it. Some aren't. Some people are cut out to be managers, and others employees. That's just how things are. A person who isn't cut out for getting themselves out of poverty might do fine if born with the same advantages I've had.

NO its not. We've been over the statistics before.


Economic mobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

42% of children born in the lowest income quintile move up 1 or 2 quintiles. I wouldn't call that rare.

No, but I'd call moving up 3+ quintiles rare, which is what I was talking about. Moving up to the second quintile doesn't do very much. That means you're still in the bottom 40%. The median income is about $49,000, which means your household is still probably in the $25,000-40,000 range. I wouldn't consider it much progress to go from a household of 3 making $19,000 to a household of 3 making $29,000 relatively speaking.

Besides more than half of children in the lowest quintile staying there is a lot.

A guy with no education giving up a decent job to take an unpaid training position at a trading firm (ending up homeless for a time because of that decision) and finally landing a paying gig... yeah, that might be a little rare. But working your way out of poverty is not.

And notice how the movie alters things a bit, to fit this liberal guilt stereotype. I've never seen it, but based on the plot outlines:

And the real life Chris Gardner:

Not quite so moving and rare in my opinion.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but this only helps my point. The story of him going from poverty to wealth isn't even really accurate. My real point was that the story they depict in the movie is cool, and it does happen sometimes, but it's not common at all. People see some people improving their situation like in the movie and think it happens often.

I don't disagree some have it easier than others, life isn't always fair. But the idea most people are just too stupid or don't have the ability to provide for themselves seems so close to racism or class-ism I don't know what else to call it.

I don't know whether it's your bias against me or what, but you're not really understanding what I'm saying. I think I've been pretty clear. I have neither said nor implied that most people are just too stupid or don't have the ability to provide for themselves. What I've said is that there are some people like you and some others I've talked to who are able to overcome poverty and several disadvantages. There are others who aren't. It's like your example of drug addicts. Some people are able to kick the habit, and others aren't. It doesn't necessarily make the ones who are able to improve better, just different. I don't consider myself better than people living in poverty. I think quite the opposite, which is why I acknowledged all of the advantages I've had to get where I am, and why I think we should help them.

 

[Tom Ace]

Look, I've been poor. Most of my friends are still poor. Nearly everyone I hang out with is poor. And their my buds and I love them to death, but their situation, 9 times out of 10, is their own doing... and they refuse to take the steps necessary to pull themselves out of it.

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is the idea of generational poverty. When you grow up in a culture of poverty, it makes it harder to get out of it. I read an interesting book on the different kinds of poverty a while back. It's kind of like the gang lifestyle. Obviously, it's not a good lifestyle even for the gang members, but when you grow up in it and are immersed in it, it influences your mindset.

So, to you it might look like they're just refusing to take the necessary steps (and I'm sure some of them are), but there are other factors at play. This is why I say some people are cut out to break the mindset and improve, while others aren't built that way. Think of it like religion. If you grow up in a non-religious family, you're very likely to be non-religious. If you grow up in a religious family you're very likely to be religious. Some children from each group go the opposite direction. I grew up in a religious family, but I "broke out of it". I am now an atheist. I can look at other people I know who haven't broken out of it and say they're just refusing to see what I've seen, but there's more to it than that.