welfare

[cipher6]

First:

What I've said is that there are some people like you and some others I've talked to who are able to overcome poverty and several disadvantages. There are others who aren't. It's like your example of drug addicts. Some people are able to kick the habit, and others aren't. It doesn't necessarily make the ones who are able to improve better, just different.

Your making the flawed assumption that people that don't kick drugs or poverty didn't because they were incapable.

I'm saying many (admittedly hard to quantify) could, they posses the the ability, but fail to use those abilities. THATS what I think everyone is getting at, to some degree.

Everyone that remains poor doesn't remain there out of some lack of ability to work and support themselves... many stay there because of a lack of desire to improve themselves.

Thats why I equated it with drugs... anyone can clean up, and there are programs to help them, but not every junky really wants to clean up enough to put in the work to get there. Same with poverty.

Yes, there are some that don't posses the ability to support themselves, most are disabled in some way.

And the "I'm an educated white male, so obviously I'm better, smarter..." nonsense indicates that you haven't actually read what I've said.

Yes, I've read it, and I've heard it a million times. To think poor people just don't have the ability to not be poor, so must be supported, I think is an insult to poor people, and part of the mentality that perpetuates generations of welfare culture.

I'm educated and white, which gives me a huge advantage. It doesn't make me better, which is why I want to support the people who don't have those advantages.

Advantages and abilities are two different things. A female minority growing up poor, and a white male growing up middle class... they both posses the ability to work hard and support themselves. But the female minority might have to work a bit harder to reach the level of the middle class male. She might have to study harder at home because she goes to a crappy school. Might have to take out more loans and get out of college with higher amount of dept. Might have to work harder at her job to get the same salary... Its not fair, but its life, and it doesn't mean because your advantaged, others don't have the ability.

And to think of it like that, again, is a cop out, that perpetuates welfare culture. "That guy has it easier, so I shouldn't have to work harder to get there, so I'm gonna give up, and let others support me."

Some people are cut out to be managers, and others employees. That's just how things are.

Thats true, but managers are not the only non-poor people around. You don't have to have a manager style mind to work yourself out of poverty. Simply learn a trade and get good at it, plumbers can make 20$ a hour for example.

No, but I'd call moving up 3+ quintiles rare,

rarer... but we're talking about out of poverty and being self sufficient here. I will admit, your chances of being rich are better if your born rich.

which is what I was talking about. Moving up to the second quintile doesn't do very much. That means you're still in the bottom 40%. The median income is about $49,000, which means your household is still probably in the $25,000-40,000 range. I wouldn't consider it much progress to go from a household of 3 making $19,000 to a household of 3 making $29,000 relatively speaking.

Poverty level in 2011 for a family of 3 is $18,530. So, if your born into a 3 person household making 0$ and grow up to make $18,500+(2nd quintile lower limit) or $34,738+(3rd quintile lower limit) You've worked your way out of poverty.... Now these numbers aren't adjusted for inflation and all that, but I think you get the idea... we're not talking about poor people becoming rich, but the ability to work your way out of poverty and be able to support yourself and your family.

Besides more than half of children in the lowest quintile staying there is a lot.

But WHY are they there... thats another fallacy I see a lot in the liberal guilt stereo-type... reading your own feelings and guilt into statistics. You see 42% staying in the bottom quintile and automatically assume, they stayed there because they don't have the ability to get out, or the system somehow screwed them and made it impossible for them... then propose all kinds of things to help change the STATISTICS... You end up ignoring real life... that many people stayed there, out of a lack of desire to better themselves, and no amount of government assistance will give someone a desire to do better.

Instead of battling a statistic, and giving more and more handouts, making it easier and easier to not have a desire to do better, we should be battling a culture of accepting that status quo of your life. Obama had some flashes of this when first elected and came out talking about how terrible it is something like 80% of African American children are born out of wedlock, and many of them don't even know their fathers. Things like THIS are key to changing the statistic, not making it more and more comfortable to just accept your lot and do nothing to change it.

Being a nerd and understanding algebra should be cool, not thug life and how tuff you are.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but this only helps my point. The story of him going from poverty to wealth isn't even really accurate. My real point was that the story they depict in the movie is cool, and it does happen sometimes, but it's not common at all. People see some people improving their situation like in the movie and think it happens often.

And I think defining "improving their situation" as being wealthy is another problem. Yeah, if your born poor, its hard to become rich... But it happens more than you think, go look up the bios of some of the top paid CEOs.

Chris Gardner didn't go from poor to rich, he went from doing OK, made some bad decisions in a quest to get rich (greed) that took him through a homeless period, before he got lucky that opened the door to him finally getting rich.

This isn't typical, no. But being rich isn't typical, whats more important is being self sufficient, and being able to support yourself.




lordofthereef

Oh I wasn't saying it was incredibly rare, I was simply saying that NOT making it out doesn't equate to being lazy, unless of course we are saying that then the other 58% were then lazy and didn't want to work. Furthermore, let's take the 42% of the children you quote. A portion of them were likely helped by the very system people here loath. Who is to say it wasn't this very system that helped some of them get to where they are now?

I am aware you don't write laws, but we are in fact discussing how laws should potentially be changed, are we not? If you take what I said in context, I find that it does make sense. Your view of wellfare seems to be based off of your personal experiences. Your personal experiences may very well not be representative of the norm. That is all.

Whats my view of welfare? I think I've stated a few times, they are useful programs that have saved many lives, but its still up to the individual. I'm not saying cut all assistance programs, or that everyone is lazy. But, many, not all, that are on welfare lack a desire not the ability to improve their lives.

And I don't think I've proposed a single law in this thread, but did think putting welfare recipients to work was an "interesting" idea.

 

[lordofthereef]

Cipher,
Please understand that I talk about laws because, well, we are talking about a government program and we are governed by laws. I guess my question is simple. What was the point of your input in this thread if not to influence wellfare policy (law)? It seems we both, for the most part, have the same mindset, so why not suggest how to make things work more to your liking rather than just say you don't quite approve of how the system works? In short, would you make changes or rather just say the system is flawed, leave it that way, and continue to complain about the lazies?

 

[cipher6]

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is the idea of generational poverty. When you grow up in a culture of poverty, it makes it harder to get out of it. I read an interesting book on the different kinds of poverty a while back. It's kind of like the gang lifestyle. Obviously, it's not a good lifestyle even for the gang members, but when you grow up in it and are immersed in it, it influences your mindset.

Now I think your getting closer to understanding my point. Its more culture that keeps people poor than a messed up system, not enough welfare or some lack of ability. Hand outs will do nothing to fix culture, and many times just reinforce it. Just like drugs... if your caught up in the drug culture, and its all you know, and all your friends are in it, its harder to break out. You have to REALLY want to better yourself, they don't lack the ability, but the desire. They would rather stick to whats familiar and easy than whats hard but better for them... insensitive people just refer to this as "lazy." But I admit its a bit more than laziness.

So, to you it might look like they're just refusing to take the necessary steps (and I'm sure some of them are), but there are other factors at play. This is why I say some people are cut out to break the mindset and improve, while others aren't built that way.

I believe every human has the ability to redefine his culture and beliefs, its a matter of desire... its freewill.

Think of it like religion. If you grow up in a non-religious family, you're very likely to be non-religious. If you grow up in a religious family you're very likely to be religious. Some children from each group go the opposite direction. I grew up in a religious family, but I "broke out of it". I am now an atheist. I can look at other people I know who haven't broken out of it and say they're just refusing to see what I've seen, but there's more to it than that.

I agree, but cultural and beliefs are not hard wired, if you have a desire to better yourself, you can do it. And this will lead into a big argument on freewill. Are people destined to be who they are, pre-programed by their culture? Or do they have free will, and the ability to say, this culture and mindset isn't getting me where I want to be, so I am going to change it.

I believe in freewill.

If you think people can't really break out of the culture they are born into, then its logical to impose breeding restrictions on people that perpetuate a culture that is detrimental.

Thats why I say, hand outs are not the answer, they are just a tool to help people who are actively trying to better themselves. The easier you make it on people living in that culture the harder it will be for them to admit the culture is harming them, and actively try to escape it.

 

[lordofthereef]

After reading some your above post over again, I have a thought to add to my suggestions for the wellfare laws. Cipher's use of the word "thug" got me thinking of what thugs do (admitted sterotype). The two things I could think of is do/deal drugs and own/carry illegal weapons. So, here is my proposition:

Any person convicted of dealing/doing any of the above activities immediately permanently forfeits any possible wellfare collection. The way I see it, expescially with the drugs, if you have the money for that habit, you shouldn't need the money to feed your kids and pay the rent.

 

[cipher6]

Cipher,
Please understand that I talk about laws because, well, we are talking about a government program and we are governed by laws. I guess my question is simple. What was the point of your input in this thread if not to influence wellfare policy? It seems we both, for the most part, have the same mindset, so why not suggest how to make things work more to your liking rather than just say you don't quite approve of how the system works? In short, would you make changes or rather just say the system is flawed, leave it that way, and continue to complain about the lazies?

First, I don't think I've once called anyone lazy.

What would I do? I don't really know. I'm better at understanding and dissecting a situation that proposing concrete answers.

But if I was pushed to come up with answers, it would be less hand outs to some degree. Make being poor uncomfortable. Drug testing for welfare I don't think is a bad idea, or putting them to work in some form to qualify for assistance. Not so much to get a value out of what we spend on welfare, but to work to instill in people you have to work to survive.

Maybe required education classes, like money management, or how to navigate the world of school loans and grants for kids of of people on welfare.

If I was a famous person, like some rapper. I would make songs about doing good in school to earn that "dollar dollar bill yall"

personal story:
I was into punk rock a lot as a kid... and I was impressed with the mentality. It wasn't (all) about death and destruction like much heavy metal. Or all about violent criminal life, like so much rap. But about living, and many of my favorite bands, that are hardcore, cool, punk rock, had very positive songs.

a little sampling of my favs.
Circle Jerks, I'm Alive:

every day's such a task when this world's such a mess i try hard i do my best won't get bogged down like all the rest got no hampsters in my head, no monkey's on my back no chains and shackles to hold me down i wanna fly, i wanna fly cuz i'm alive, i'm alive the world could be such a better place who needs the garbage it's all a waste don't need the drugs, don't need the booze use that stuff you'll only lose big decision, make it right it's a battle, win the fight everything's gonna be alright i wanna fly, i wanna fly i'm alive, i'm alive, i'm alive, i'm alive

Decedents, Looser

Think that I'm a loser
'Cause my pants are really too low
Think that I'm a slob
'Cause I got holes in my shoes
..
Well you can f**k off
'Cause I'm working sixty a week
You think that life is really tough
When your pappy won't buy
You a brand new car
Take a girl out she won't f**k you
After you just brought her a gram of coke
You spent all your money on sh*tty coke
I'm not a loser! That's right,
I'm not a loser!
Cruise down the boulevard
Wasting mommy's gas while you're
Looking for kicks on Friday night
You're only goal in life
Is to smoke a joint
And decide how you're gonna get
Laid tonight

There are so many more... so helping to create a culture of wanting to do better, making education and working a 9-5 cool, is another thing I would do.

 

[lordofthereef]

There we go. I can respect that you can easily disect a problem. The issue there is, in this case, dissecting the problem doesn't bring us to any form of solution (though I can admit there are cases where it might). The beauty of an idea on how to better something like this is that it is just that. It is an idea. We are thinking up ways to make a flawed system less flawed.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Advantages and abilities are two different things. A female minority growing up poor, and a white male growing up middle class... they both posses the ability to work hard and support themselves. But the female minority might have to work a bit harder to reach the level of the middle class male. She might have to study harder at home because she goes to a crappy school. Might have to take out more loans and get out of college with higher amount of dept. Might have to work harder at her job to get the same salary... Its not fair, but its life, and it doesn't mean because your advantaged, others don't have the ability.

I love that. In the real world. She would have to work 2 times harder then the white guy, for every hour the white male studied she would have to study 2 hours. For every hour the white man worked, she would have to work 2 hours to make the same pay. For every 8 hour day you put in, a minority female would have to but in 16 hours.

Because for every dollar the white male makes, a minority female makes 50 cents. I personally work 5 hours more then anyone in my company and I earn the same amount of money as the white males in my group. 5 hours more for the same pay.

So, do give me that stuff.

I really think you are missing the point.

From the bible, mattew 25:30-46

"31

 

[cipher6]

So, do give me that stuff.

What stuff?

 

[RiverOfIce]

What stuff?

That a minority female earns the same as a white male, because it is not even close.

 

[cipher6]

But the female minority might have to work a bit harder to reach the level of the middle class male. She might have to study harder at home because she goes to a crappy school. Might have to take out more loans and get out of college with higher amount of dept. Might have to work harder at her job to get the same salary... Its not fair, but its life, and it doesn't mean because your advantaged, others don't have the ability.

Where did I say that exactly?

 

[RiverOfIce]

Where did I say that exactly?

The part where you said they have to work a "bit"
harder. Exactly.

 

[cipher6]

Yeah, its a bit, harder, all other things being equal... but thats not the topic of this thread.

 

[lordofthereef]

That a minority female earns the same as a white male, because it is not even close.

With all due respect, I think this is highly dependent on the job, the specific employer, and the situation. My girlfriend is of hispanic descent and she makes just as much as a co-manager as does her male counterpart. I agree that it's probably more likely for a female to be oefered less wages, but it is certainly not a rule.

 

[cipher6]

With all due respect, I think this is highly dependent on the job, the specific employer, and the situation. My girlfriend is of hispanic decsent and she makes just as much as a co-manager as does her male counterpart. I agree that it's probably more likely for a female to be oefered less wages, but it is certainly not a rule.

I agree, my wife is a Hispanic geologist, making more than most other women and many of the men in the office, even me.

 

[Member243850]

I love that. In the real world. She would have to work 2 times harder then the white guy, for every hour the white male studied she would have to study 2 hours. For every hour the white man worked, she would have to work 2 hours to make the same pay. For every 8 hour day you put in, a minority female would have to but in 16 hours.

Because for every dollar the white male makes, a minority female makes 50 cents. I personally work 5 hours more then anyone in my company and I earn the same amount of money as the white males in my group. 5 hours more for the same pay.

So, do give me that stuff.

I really think you are missing the point.

I really don't want to be offensive to you but... I am VERY offended by what you have said here,

It has got nothing to do with race at all my friend...

The only thing that matters is cultural beliefs and / or your basic behaviour... and I cannot repeat how much it has got nothing to do with the colour of your skin.

I don't even know why you have brought this up?

I am very offended by this statement.

Read here about Richard Maponya who is a Famous, Black South African and is extremely well known for is extreme hard working attitude even though he was born in a very poor home in a shack and had hardly no eduction...

Richard Maponya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.africansuccess.org/visuFiche.php?id=431〈=en
I hope I have not misunderstood or offended you but please don't bring race into this topic, because it is meaningless.

 

[Dark Jedi]

I love that. In the real world. She would have to work 2 times harder then the white guy, for every hour the white male studied she would have to study 2 hours. For every hour the white man worked, she would have to work 2 hours to make the same pay. For every 8 hour day you put in, a minority female would have to but in 16 hours.

Because for every dollar the white male makes, a minority female makes 50 cents. I personally work 5 hours more then anyone in my company and I earn the same amount of money as the white males in my group. 5 hours more for the same pay.

So, do give me that stuff.

Then thats your own fault for working for a company that makes you work more for the same pay. So blame yourself and not the white males and the company for the way your treated. AS your letting it happen.


WHy is it people always brings in race to justify their claims? Dont like the way your treated? Look for another job.

 

[Member243850]

Then thats your own fault for working for a company that makes you work more for the same pay. So blame yourself and not the white males and the company for the way your treated. AS your letting it happen.


WHy is it people always brings in race to justify their claims? Dont like the way your treated? Look for another job.

+ 1

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[lordofthereef]

Then thats your own fault for working for a company that makes you work more for the same pay. So blame yourself and not the white males and the company for the way your treated. AS your letting it happen.


WHy is it people always brings in race to justify their claims? Dont like the way your treated? Look for another job.

To an exptent I agree with you. On the other hand, there may not be another job in the area. Or the other job may pay less. So what is better. Working at McDonald's for equal (crappy) pay, or working at a larger company where you are paid much more than you would be at McD's, but still a bit less than your white male counterpart (all other things between the two of you equal)? I think I would rather take the higher paying job, even though my pay rate is decided unfairly. Bottom line is race should never play into any sort of decision making whatsoever, but sadly it does. That said, I think people paint this to be a much mor frequent occurance than it actually is.

 

[lordofthereef]

I really don't want to be offensive to you but... I am VERY offended by what you have said here,

It has got nothing to do with race at all my friend...

The only thing that matters is cultural beliefs and / or your basic behaviour... and I cannot repeat how much it has got nothing to do with the colour of your skin.

I don't even know why you have brought this up?

I am very offended by this statement.

Read here about Richard Maponya who is a Famous, Black South African and is extremely well known for is extreme hard working attitude even though he was born in a very poor home in a shack and had hardly no eduction...

Stinky,
With all due respect, this sort of profiling does happen. In some places ethnic females are paid less than ethnic males. It is fact, not opinion. We are talking about the USA. South Africa may be different, although with their sketchy racial history, I doubt it. The thing to understand is that this isn't a RULE, but it is an occurance.

 

[ParishL31]

I have to disagree with the race arguement as well. If you are poor and a minority, you have a number of choices of free scholarships on that fact alone. I've applied to many scholarships and been selected to a small pool of finalists then they ask you financial information, then all of a sudden magically they're unwilling to help me because of my parent's income. If I were poor I would surely of gotten it. Yes, it could have been other factors and they decided I simply sucked, but you cannot deny when the only additional information they asked for a few of them was financial information, that that being rich or poor was a deciding factor in selecting candidates.

Yes, if you're a 4.0 student out of high school with tons of community service you will get a full ride scholarship regardless. But compare a student with say a 3.0 GPA, if they are white and middle class their chances of getting that scholarship are less than someone who is poor and a minority. Don't believe me? Go look up the scholarships. There's plenty for minorities or poor people, there are zero for being middle class and white. I'm Asian and I am well aware of the number of scholarships just for being Asian, it's stupid and "reverse racists" if you ask me.

Aside from the education I still think hard work will overcome the minority and poor background. All of my family immigrated from Vietnam during the war, so it's clear to say when they got here they had nothing. My dad was able to become successful and bring my direct family into the uppermiddle class. While his job didn't pay bad nor did it pay well, he did it on working 60+ hours every week. Was there a bit of luck? Yes, but a majority of it is him willing to work more hours than others. I have other family members who are content on staying on welfare and happy with their lifestyle. It boils down to your work ethic and desire to succeed. The race excuse is a weak excuse and crutch to blame something else for your failure (once again I'm Asian and have never pulled the race card on ANYTHING).

That being said about work ethic and minority stuff, here's my two cents on the welfare issue. I have done all my English Composition papers all on welfare so I have done my share of research.

I willl say right now the theory behind welfare is great. If someone who works hard and bad things lineup and happens to them out of their control and all of a sudden they're in trouble, yes by all means help them get back on their feet. Sometimes bad things happen to good people and it's a shame and I'm all for lending those people a helping hand.

However, we know what country we live in. A majority of people will lie cheat and steal their way to freebies and freeloading off government assistance. If you don't believe me go work at Walmart. I have for 3 years, and I will say before that I didn't think it was that bad but after that experience it opened up my eyes to the real world I was prior sheltered from.

I can go on for hours ranting about the scum bag people that exists, but for the sake of time I will leave my experience at Walmart at this: I was working the cigarrette aisle one day and some lady wanted to buy cigarrettes with her welfare cash account (cash account is supposed to be for household supplies but you can literally buy anything with it). I told her she can't do that and I refused. She went on some temper tantrum and got the manager and forced us to sell them to her. Oh yeah she called us racist on the way out too.

It's clear that a number of people abuse the system. The money they save from buying food, they're supposed to turn their life around with. Instead, they buy luxury items they otherwise could not have afforded. So they're still in the same "poor" state but now they have an iPhone and Lexus. My solution in all my papers was simply to check recipient's accounts or do surprise visits to make sure they are spending wisely. Is it invasion of privacy? Yes. But are they getting assistance, yes. IMO you gave up some rights when you let someone else pay for you, this is said for those who truely do need the help and those who abuse. This is better than the drug tests because not all abusers are drug addicts. Some simply just spend all their money on TVs, phones, cars, and luxury items instead. It's just as bad they waste tax payers money that way as it is to blow it on drugs.

I've been against how weakly enforced and how easy it is to qualify for government assistance programs for a long time. My views are you get what you earned, no more no less. You work hard, you get rich, you don't you suffer and be poor. Yes, everyone is put in different situations and some have to work harder than others, it's life it's not fair. If you make poor choices, you are the one that has to deal with it, not ask for help to get out of what you caused. I know that welfare will never be perfectly fixed to work as intended, my solution is simply to turn my head the other way and not let it make me mad over something I will never be able to control. People are people at heart, while many are kind, many are cruel and will do anything wrong or right to their own benefit and screw over everyone in their way.

Long post/rant. Sorry.

 

[lordofthereef]

Ok, scholarships are certainly an acception, but the only place race came into this thread thus far was regarding some jobs, and more specifically, pay rates at these jobs.

It's clear that a number of people abuse the system. The money they save from buying food, they're supposed to turn their life around with. Instead, they buy luxury items they otherwise could not have afforded. So they're still in the same "poor" state but now they have an iPhone and Lexus. My solution in all my papers was simply to check recipient's accounts or do surprise visits to make sure they are spending wisely. Is it invasion of privacy? Yes. But are they getting assistance, yes. IMO you gave up some rights when you let someone else pay for you, this is said for those who truely do need the help and those who abuse. This is better than the drug tests because not all abusers are drug addicts. Some simply just spend all their money on TVs, phones, cars, and luxury items instead. It's just as bad they waste tax payers money that way as it is to blow it on drugs.

I like this idea. The problem with it is forcing the person to prove what is actually theirs. What if I am on wellfare living with a friend who graciously offered a room in his house. Said friend has the big screens, the stereos, etc. It's going to look pretty bad for me even though I am not spending a dime on these luxury items.

 

[Member243850]

Stinky,
With all due respect, this sort of profiling does happen. In some places ethnic females are paid less than ethnic males. It is fact, not opinion. We are talking about the USA. South Africa may be different, although with their sketchy racial history, I doubt it. The thing to understand is that this isn't a RULE, but it is an occurance.

Hey lordofthereef my friend I really do appreciate this comment and yes to some degree you are correct but not entirely, let me explain

Yes... you are correct some what, racial discrimination occurs in the world and especially here in SA more than any other place in the world... yes it is true.

But it is wrong to say that because you are white you get more pay... that is rubbish I am sorry to say...

That statement is what got me very VERY angry and I will tell you why for a number of reasons...

Here goes and mods don't ban me because this the 120% truth so I beg you to please listen.

While I have been growing up in the "new" South Africa... it has been very very difficult... I had to get straight A's or 6 or so A + in all my subjects at school just because the Universities had a so called "special" racial "programme" for the Black South Africans...

Basically if you are black... you don't even need to work that hard at all in school and you will get into Tech or University or even College or any other tertiary education just because you are Black.

You don't even have to work that much if you are black in this country sadly...

However if you are white like me... well...I had to work soooo god damn freakin hard at school just to get almost 6 A's in all my subjects just to get into UNISA...

And now I see people from my school days, that are Black and that were even in my class at one point basically got like 40% for everything and they got into University and LOADS of them have basically failed in the 1st year and they don't even care about it... whilst many of my friends who got like 70% round about have been rejected because they are white and I know many of them are very hard workers... but they were rejected.

There is something that you may have heard in your country I don't know if you have it but it is called BEE...

It stands for black economic empowerment and it is against Human Rights but the government has forced it upon all of us and the fat cats and buddies of the ANC (which is a majority of black people) ruling party get filthy rich very quickly... and the ANC don't even truly care about the poor... it was meant to be about to help the disadvantaged but only friends of the ANC party get the money and business... they don't give a rats ass about the poor...

We are abused in South Africa...

So basically what I am trying to get at is that just because some one is white does NOT mean they are advantaged ...

Hell in SA it is anything BUT advantaged...

The white people are getting screwed in SA and it is against Human Rights... just because you are white does not mean you are advantaged!!!

We are disadvantaged in SA here if you are white like me!

if you are white in SA then may god save your poor sole...

SO NO... welfare or basic income has got bugger all to do with race...

It is against Human Rights and just getting welfare for the colour of your skin or your race is discrimination... and should be banned / illegal.

Just because someone is white or what ever does not mean they should get more or less pay or what ever...

That is why I got sooo god damn freakin angry...

I do not mean to offend any body but that is the truth.

I am so sorry if I have hurt any body here because I do not mean to do so.

Regards

Stinky

 

[lordofthereef]

Stinky,
Perhaps I misunderstood you, or even RiverofIce. I didn't believ eeither of you were arguing that every person that is white will get more pay, regardless of circumstances. I believe river was arguing her own point, and I was arguing that it does happen, unfortunately. I did not mean to imply that this is the norm in any way (as I think is obvious by my statements reguarding my girlfriend's carear).

Also, in your specific situation, you are talking about whites getting screwed. I see that as no different than what sometimes happens here in the states, it just seems the roles have been reversed. Are you the minority there? If that is the case, you are still a minority being treated unequally. One can easily be white and be a minority.

 

[EarlyMon]

In the US, employers discriminate every chance they get - it's just a matter of how.

In some cases, it's race, in others gender and so forth and so forth.

In some cases, all it takes to be the most incompetent on staff and draw the highest salary with easiest workload (that you're allowed to fail at) is to be somebody's brother- or sister-in-law.

Discrimination is a constant. It's just the way it is. I won't personally denounce anyone's experience as wrong - I take it no one here lies and I take it their experiences are their experiences.

 

[Tempusfugit]

In the US, employers discriminate every chance they get - it's just a matter of how.

In some cases, it's race, in others gender and so forth and so forth.

In some cases, all it takes to be the most incompetent on staff and draw the highest salary with easiest workload (that you're allowed to fail at) is to be somebody's brother- or sister-in-law.

Discrimination is a constant. It's just the way it is. I won't personally denounce anyone's experience as wrong - I take it no one here lies and I take it their experiences are their experiences.

My experience in the discrimination ladder

Family
Brown Nosers
Everyone else regardless of age, race, or creed