Where do we really go when we die?

[momoceio]

I knew it. I went to a Christian school for 11 years, a few Bible study classes for years after that, and many many discussions with teachers, pastors, etc who were very familiar with everything in the Bible. It was learning so much about it that led me to become an atheist. Any other book with so many inconsistencies, contradictions, and unsupported claims would be harshly ridiculed for a moment, then dismissed and forgotten. The Bible and religion in general on the other hand gets everything excused with things like "We can't know God's plan" and "God works in mysterious ways" without a hint of irony.

Yes, eternal life in paradise would be hugely preferable to my existence simply ending. Unfortunately my preference has absolutely no bearing on what every shred of evidence tells me about how the world really works. I cannot force myself to believe something that because the completely unverifiable promised payoff for my belief is really really attractive. Especially when the thing I'm asked to believe seems designed to disprove itself and the biggest arguments in its favor are along the lines of "it's true because it says it is" and "I can feel in my heart that it's true".

Ditto. I was born and raised in a christian family...went to church twice a week until I was 18. Then I woke up to reality. This, of course, is my experience. If you feel compelled to believe in floaty things in the sky then that is your prerogative and is part of what makes living in the US great. Have fun.

 

[lunatic59]

From the first book of typography to the Romans 1:12-17

12. The Lord did find monotony in the printed word of His Gospel in His shrines and temples. And he did find Himself sorely displeased with san serif and monochrome.

13. He shown unto the people the dullness on the page and there was such a cry throughout the land that He commanded His emissary to cast down upon the great cities all variety of fonts and styles for reprint.

14. The Angel appeared to the Holy Trade Unions and they were blessed with italics and serifs, scripts and bolds and semibolds and extrabolds. There were light and heavy and condensed and expanded typefaces and all manners of letters and symbols, enough to satisfy the Lord.

15. The Lord looked down and did approve of the styles and forms and galleys and bluelines for press production. So it came to pass that the Trade Unions did produce new Gospels for the people that were not as dull as the first versions.

16. And the people went forth and did purchase revised editions with these blessings of embellished Word in large quantities with bindings of leather and corduroy and mircofiber.

17. In His wisdom, this scripture intentionally left blank.


Thus sayeth my editor, Amen.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I really don't get how people are so willing to believe in Christianity. Its cleary a case of a wishy washy Guy being clearly dramaticised. And wasn't there another preacher like him too? Guess he didn't get martyred. Oh, and Islam or Buddhism are a fair bit more believable. You get a way better deal with them too.
As for Hinduism ... I'm not aware of any smart person that believes in that. lol

 

[Tangent]

Was there many different christian religions in the apostle Paul's day? NO, there was only one true christian faith.

That's because "Christianity" as a religion was itself a new offshoot of Judaism at the time.

Same as today.

Go around to a few different churches. Baptist, Catholic, Jehova's Witness, Lutheran, etc... Every one of them will tell you that their version is the one true christian faith, and every one of them will have no end to the passages of the bible that support their claim.

If you truly want to(James 4:7-8)submit yourself therefore to God. Resist the devil(and he will flee from you),Draw nigh to God(and he will draw nigh to you),then God will reveal himself to you through his Son, and his word .

I'm not trying to be flippant, but let me edit what you said so that you read it the same way I do:

If you truly want to (The Chamber of Secrets, page 329, line 14) submit yourself to Dumbledore. Resist Voldemort (and he will flee from you), Draw nigh to Dumbledore (and he will draw nigh to you), Then Dumbledore will reveal himself through his student Harry Potter, and his word.

The bible is a book full of stories and legends passed down through generations and finally written down, compiled, edited, redacted, and translated. That's all it is to me: stories that ancient man told to explain what they could not. It's not even full of original stories. The story of god sending his son to be man's savior, having 12 disciples, being crucified and resurrected after 3 days isn't even an original story. The Jesus in the bible is roughly take 6 of that plot. Ever wonder why you end prayers with "Amen"? Because that's how you ended payers to the sun god Amun-Ra. The one thing christianity is better at than almost every other religion is taking the observances of another religion and declaring them to be their own...

(which,if you get rid of the false teachings you will see does not contradict it self,man may but the truth doesn't)

So here we have 2 choices: 1) The bible does not contradict itself because it is god's word and god's word is infallible. 2) The bible does contradict itself because it is the writings of men. Since it is self-supporting (the bible is truth because it says it is) any contradictions cast doubt on the entire thing front to back.

- Who was Jesus' grandpa on Joseph's side? Matthew 1:16 says it was Jacob. Luke 3:23 says it was Heli.
- How many animals on the ark? Genesis 7:2 - Seven of every clean beast, two of the unclean. Genesis 7:8-9 - of clean, and of beast that are not clean ... went in two and two
- Punishment for the sins of the father? Isaiah 14:21 - Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers... Deuteronomy 24:16 - ...neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers
- Bats are birds? - Leviticus 11:19
- How did Judas die? Matthew 27:5 - ... went out and hanged himself. Acts 1:18 - ...falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.
- What were Jesus' last words? Matthew 27:46-50 ... "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"... Jesus when he cried again yielded up the ghost. Luke 23:46 - "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit" and having said thus he gave up the ghost. John 19:30 - he said "It is finished" and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

I could go on for a while, but you get the point...

The Lord preserveth all those that LOVE him, but all the wicked he will destroy(notice it didn't say he was going to torture the wicked)

The preservation of those that love him and destruction of the wicked is the unprovable promise since nobody comes back from it to tell us about it except in "visions" and dreams.

 

[lunatic59]

What were Jesus' last words?

"Hey, I can see my house from up here."

The preservation of those that love him and destruction of the wicked is the unprovable promise since nobody comes back from it to tell us about it except in "visions" and dreams.

And B movies on cable.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Hey Tangent,I know this is going to sound like a 'Nuub" (Opps! I am a 'Nuub") question but how did you manage to turn just the words you selected to big bold face type.Thats pretty Cool!

It was God's Will

 

[Bob Maxey]

I really don't get how people are so willing to believe in Christianity. Its cleary a case of a wishy washy Guy being clearly dramaticised. And wasn't there another preacher like him too? Guess he didn't get martyred. Oh, and Islam or Buddhism are a fair bit more believable. You get a way better deal with them too.
As for Hinduism ... I'm not aware of any smart person that believes in that. lol

And . . . I really do not get how those that question those darn Christians and their beliefs do so without any proof that God never existed or the bible is false or inaccurate.

So pick your argument: be a Christian that runs on faith and no proof or a hell bound non-believer that cannot actually disprove the existence of God.

It is impossible to know until we die and either we go to hell (sorry, I was projecting) or Heaven, or some other place. Or, we simply die and that is that.

 

[Tangent]

And . . . I really do not get how those that question those darn Christians and their beliefs do so without any proof that God never existed or the bible is false or inaccurate.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you want me to believe that there is an omnipotent being that created the universe you need to provide the proof. It's not my responsibility to disprove every baseless idea somebody might come up with, it's theirs.

Also, I already posted several examples of how the bible is at the very least inaccurate in several places...

So pick your argument: be a Christian that runs on faith and no proof or a hell bound non-believer that cannot actually disprove the existence of God.

I like how you put the idea that one side holds on both sides of your argument. Either hell is real and you won't go there, or hell is not real and you'll burn in it forever!

It is impossible to know until we die and either we go to hell (sorry, I was projecting) or Heaven, or some other place. Or, we simply die and that is that.

Correct, it's impossible to know. With that in mind, why keep telling people that they're going to hell if they don't also believe in it without proof?

 

[Bob Maxey]

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you want me to believe that there is an omnipotent being that created the universe you need to provide the proof. It's not my responsibility to disprove every baseless idea somebody might come up with, it's theirs.

True enough to a point. But as soon as you say there is no "omnipotent being that created the universe" don't you have to also prove that belief or idea or theory you accept as fact? You cannot have it both ways. I must prove there is a God and you must find a way to prove I am wrong.

You say God exists and I say you simply cannot prove it. Because you cannot prove it, God does not exist.

You say God does not exist and I say prove it. You cannot prove it so God does not exist. It's that whole you can't prove a negative argument which is to some extent false.

You simply cannot win the argument either way. God either does exist or he does not exist and nobody in the entire history of the world can prove it or not prove it. All we can do is argue it as many before us have and with the same result: no proof either way.

If you believe, you have faith God is real and that does not require any proof whatsoever. Faith is faith and it requires no proof. I have faith that God is not real in the way most religions seem to depict him.

 

[Slug]

As for Hinduism ... I'm not aware of any smart person that believes in that. lol

LOL or not, several hundred million people in the Indian Subcontinent might feel slightly offended by that remark.

Please remember that AF has members spread right across the globe, and what seems humourous to one person may upset another.

 

[ElasticNinja]

LOL or not, several hundred million people in the Indian Subcontinent might feel slightly offended by that remark.

Please remember that AF has members spread right across the globe, and what seems humourous to one person may upset another.

Oh I know
I'm friendly with lots of Indians from my Symbian days... and I'm not joking, anyone doing any sort of higher education just lol at it.
I reckon the country will be one of the first democratic third world countries to have a large athiest minority

 

[Bob Maxey]

LOL or not, several hundred million people in the Indian Subcontinent might feel slightly offended by that remark.

Please remember that AF has members spread right across the globe, and what seems humourous to one person may upset another.

I agree. Debate the crazy ideas and do not insult the believers. They have faith and they do not need proof.

As for members across the globe, true. And your posts are easy to see when you Google. And remember, some religous finatics actually kill people for merely showing an image of Allah, so it is best not to insult peoiple you do not know.

Except for the Raelians, they seem like they are fair game.

 

[Tangent]

True enough to a point. But as soon as you say there is no "omnipotent being that created the universe" don't you have to also prove that belief or idea or theory you accept as fact?

Why? All I'm doing is rejecting your idea for what created the universe because I find it lacking in any sort of verifiable evidence. If I say I commuted to my work this morning by a quantum teleporter device you don't need to prove how I did get there to call BS on my claim. Whether it was by driving, walking, taking a bus, or crawling on my hands and knees bears no relevance to your logical (and of course correct) assertion that I did not teleport.

You cannot have it both ways. I must prove there is a God and you must find a way to prove I am wrong.

That philosophy would require you to actually prove that the other 3,000 deities recorded in history other than yahweh are not the true creators of the world. Do you actually take the time to prove that the email you just got wasn't from the deposed price of Nigeria who wants to split his fortune with you? We aren't starting a debate from the baseline position of "god created the universe" where I have to prove he didn't. We're starting from the position of "there is a universe". If you have a theory about how it came to be, it's up to you to prove it correct, (or at least reasonable enough to investigate further) not me to prove it wrong.

You say God exists and I say you simply cannot prove it. Because you cannot prove it, God does not exist.

This would be the usual way to approach the matter... Apply the logic to any other claim. For fun let's take the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the example. Is it up to you to disprove its existence, or would it be up to me to prove it?

You say God does not exist and I say prove it. You cannot prove it so God does not exist. It's that whole you can't prove a negative argument which is to some extent false.

You simply cannot win the argument either way. God either does exist or he does not exist and nobody in the entire history of the world can prove it or not prove it. All we can do is argue it as many before us have and with the same result: no proof either way.

Which brings up the point that led me to question my christian upbringing: If there is no proof for something - with or without proof against it - why accept it as true? What is the motivation to accept as fact something that has no proof? When I started questioning my own motivations for belief the answer I came up with was very disturbing and creepy. I had believed because I had been told to since childhood. I'd had it pounded into me on a regular basis along with the warnings that even questioning the validity was a sin. Pointing out inconsistencies didn't result in any kind of debate, I was just told there was no inconsistency. Not because I had misread something, but because the book couldn't be wrong. If it said 2+2=5, then that's fact. If it later said 2+2=4, well, that's obviously true isn't it? If you treat an adult that way everybody will accuse you of running a cult that's brainwashing people.

If you believe, you have faith God is real and that does not require any proof whatsoever. Faith is faith and it requires no proof. I have faith that God is not real in the way most religions seem to depict him.

Only religions (which require it) would even consider for a moment that believing something without any evidence to support it is a good and worthy thing. Watch somebody do that with something other than religion and even you will probably just shake your head at them.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Why? All I'm doing is rejecting your idea for what created the universe because I find it lacking in any sort of verifiable evidence. If I say I commuted to my work this morning by a quantum teleporter device you don't need to prove how I did get there to call BS on my claim. Whether it was by driving, walking, taking a bus, or crawling on my hands and knees bears no relevance to your logical (and of course correct) assertion that I did not teleport.

Indeed you are. But since there is no verifiable proof someone/something other than God created the universe, there we go. Here we are, arguing something neither of us can prove or disprove.

One can find many scientists that disagree about how exactly things formed. A Big Bang created everything that can possibly exist is one theory. But to some, this is a silly idea because how can everything there is, possibly come from a grain of sand? Balderdash, I say. Ditto string theory and 35 seperate dimensions. Widely accepted and not proven.

At least I can point to a picture of God and ask a billion people if God exists and in one form or another, there is a Supreme Being. Most

I'll say there is no God in the form most people understand. Just for the record. Of this I have faith and therefore, no proof needed.

So here you go: God created the heavens in seven days and 3 hours Mountain Standard Time with non-union labor, super mind waves, and magic solvents. Toss me a little verifiable evidence that my position is wrong. Remember, I have faith so I absolutely do not need proof.

By the way, we received Palm Pilot parts via the engineering department in another state. When we received the files, we sent them to a cool machine that recreated the parts in our facility. Almost by divine intervention, BOOM, there were the parts.

Also, the CO2 lasers would create special parts in our factory vis signals from space or perhaps California. I just sent a manuscript to my printer and for some reason only the Gods can ever hope to understand, it magically appeared in my printer tray, and all the words were speeled korectely, two.

So I wouldn't (necessarily) call BS because I have first hand experience with the "teleportation" of solid components, metal trim parts, and pretty pictures. In your case, I'll perhaps say it is a given that you lack any such transport device. No proof needed. Smiley

 

[Bob Maxey]

LOL or not, several hundred million people in the Indian Subcontinent might feel slightly offended by that remark.

Oh Yeah . . . name them, come on, give me only a part of the list, not the entire hundred million. I need proof. Oh, and email address info so I can confirm your list of names.

Smiley

Bob

 

[DaSchmarotzer]

Tangent, I agree with most of your post. However there's a small difference in how I would have said it. Feel free to agree or not. It's (mostly) that part:

You say God exists and I say you simply cannot prove it. Because you cannot prove it, God does not exist.

Because you cannot prove it, God probably does not exist. Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true; it is a theory.

Also, parts of your post could have been summed up by the famous "burden of evidence".

One can find many scientists that disagree about how exactly things formed. A Big Bang created everything that can possibly exist is one theory. But to some, this is a silly idea because how can everything there is, possibly come from a grain of sand? Balderdash, I say. Ditto string theory and 35 seperate dimensions. Widely accepted and not proven.

I have a big interest in sciences: I am still amazed when I look at daily objects, like a computer, lights, toilets, anything really. The extent at which man controls his environment is incredible (to me at least) and the universe itself is quite intriguing to say the least. I do not have enough knowledge to have a "favorite" among the many scientific theories related to the "creation" of the Universe (if creation there was), but I do hope that one day we'll have more answers. Curiosity is what have driven us forward when it comes to the technology I enjoy so much and religions (once again I am not expert on the topic) are forwarding values different to mine. I'm not talking about the "respect other people" type of values, but I am very skeptic when it comes to an "absolute truth". I am against anything that would promote close-mindedness. I am probably generalizing, but you should get my point.

About the "widely accepted and not proven" statement, I agree with you. Most individuals, like myself, don't have the required knowledge to fully understand what they are talking about. I, on the other hand, will never affirm things such as "the big bang theory is true". Would it be possible for these individuals to be close-minded too?

At least I can point to a picture of God and ask a billion people if God exists and in one form or another, there is a Supreme Being.

Many individuals used to think the Earth was some kind of plate (at least from what I've heard). It was a valid hypothesis IMO since the concept of gravity is crazy to say the least. Walking upside down, how ridiculous.

What I have a problem with is the people that will affirm that God exists without any doubt. It's faith I dislike. Oh well. It's just another theory.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Tangent, I agree with most of your post. However there's a small difference in how I would have said it. Feel free to agree or not. It's (mostly) that part:

Because you cannot prove it, God probably does not exist. Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true; it is a theory.

Also, parts of your post could have been summed up by the famous "burden of evidence".

SNIP A TAD

Many individuals used to think the Earth was some kind of plate (at least from what I've heard). It was a valid hypothesis IMO since the concept of gravity is crazy to say the least. Walking upside down, how ridiculous.

What I have a problem with is the people that will affirm that God exists without any doubt. It's faith I dislike. Oh well. It's just another theory.

All I am saying is this:

God is not a given and how the universe formed is not a given. Neither scientists or theologians can prove one is correct and the other is wrong.

Some things scientists try to tell us are facts are very difficult to understand and we tend to wonder how can some of the theories be true.

For example, the idea that every possible thing came from a momentous explosion of a something that is smaller than a grain of sand. To me, this is impossible to believe.

Some scientists claim that Superstring theory is true, yet other scientists say when a theory cannot be tested or likely will never be tested, it becomes philosophy, and not science. So beloved theories like the SS theory have more in common with God fearing faith than hard science.

And some here looking for facts and proof will accept SS theory as fact when it is more akin to the faith so many here have a problem with. And some of these folks have neither a religious understanding or the ability to solve or understand higher math. Like Bob.

 

[Tangent]

Indeed you are. But since there is no verifiable proof someone/something other than God created the universe, there we go. Here we are, arguing something neither of us can prove or disprove.

One can find many scientists that disagree about how exactly things formed. A Big Bang created everything that can possibly exist is one theory. But to some, this is a silly idea because how can everything there is, possibly come from a grain of sand? Balderdash, I say. Ditto string theory and 35 seperate dimensions. Widely accepted and not proven.

The difference is that string theory and the inaccurately named big bang theory are presented and accepted as plausible theories, not as facts to be taken on faith.

At least I can point to a picture of God and ask a billion people if God exists and in one form or another, there is a Supreme Being. Most

At one point you could have done the same with an image of a flat earth, or a diagram of the sun god riding his chariot across the sky to give us daylight...

I'll say there is no God in the form most people understand. Just for the record. Of this I have faith and therefore, no proof needed.

The thing about "it's faith" that irks me is that it's an easy out. It's not very difficult to say you need no proof when none is available.

So here you go: God created the heavens in seven days and 3 hours Mountain Standard Time with non-union labor, super mind waves, and magic solvents. Toss me a little verifiable evidence that my position is wrong. Remember, I have faith so I absolutely do not need proof.

Most little kids feel the same about the monster in their closet or under their bed. No proof, plenty of proof to the contrary when parents open the doors and have the kids look under the bed, yet they still believe it. Should we praise the kids for having faith or do we respect them more when they come to us and say they've figured out there never was one to begin with?

By the way, we received Palm Pilot parts via the engineering department in another state. When we received the files, we sent them to a cool machine that recreated the parts in our facility. Almost by divine intervention, BOOM, there were the parts.

Divine intervention? I know it's not how you mean it, but that remark comes close to one aspect of religion that really annoys me: Praising and thanking god for the hard work of a person. It wasn't divine intervention that got you the parts, it was the work of the engineers that designed, built, and operated the equipment that could scan a part in one state, send the data to another, and have a replica built. Jesus didn't save that lady in the church group, the doctor that operated on her for hours did, etc...

Also, the CO2 lasers would create special parts in our factory vis signals from space or perhaps California. I just sent a manuscript to my printer and for some reason only the Gods can ever hope to understand, it magically appeared in my printer tray, and all the words were speeled korectely, two.

That's the thing though, that didn't happen for reasons only the gods can ever hope to understand. It happened for reasons we not only understand, but can duplicate, alter, and have respond as predicted.

So I wouldn't (necessarily) call BS because I have first hand experience with the "teleportation" of solid components, metal trim parts, and pretty pictures. In your case, I'll perhaps say it is a given that you lack any such transport device. No proof needed. Smiley

No, you have first hand experience with something that would only be called teleportation by somebody with an extremely limited understanding of technology. I know you're having fun with this example but I see it as the perfect one to expand to the entire universe. Just because we don't know how something happened doesn't mean it's magic or that it must have been done by an intelligence or deity beyond our understanding.

Returning to something that you mentioned earlier:

because how can everything there is, possibly come from a grain of sand? Balderdash, I say.

This is one logical discontinuity I just never got about the big bang theory vs creation argument. Basic undefined matter coming into existence from nothing is viewed as an absolutely absurd idea. Yet an all-powerful, all-knowing, god springing from the same nothing is completely reasonable? That's exchanging an already unlikely event for one infinitely less likely.

 

[DaSchmarotzer]

All I am saying is this:

God is not a given and how the universe formed is not a given. Neither scientists or theologians can prove one is correct and the other is wrong.

Some things scientists try to tell us are facts are very difficult to understand and we tend to wonder how can some of the theories be true.

For example, the idea that every possible thing came from a momentous explosion of a something that is smaller than a grain of sand. To me, this is impossible to believe.

Some scientists claim that Superstring theory is true, yet other scientists say when a theory cannot be tested or likely will never be tested, it becomes philosophy, and not science. So beloved theories like the SS theory have more in common with God fearing faith than hard science.

And some here looking for facts and proof will accept SS theory as fact when it is more akin to the faith so many here have a problem with. And some of these folks have neither a religious understanding or the ability to solve or understand higher math. Like Bob.

Well, I think we've come to an agreement. I am more inclined to believe the "scientific" theories, but that's just me.

Have a nice day sir.

 

[Tangent]

Tangent, I agree with most of your post. However there's a small difference in how I would have said it. Feel free to agree or not. It's (mostly) that part:



Because you cannot prove it, God probably does not exist. Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true; it is a theory.

Also, parts of your post could have been summed up by the famous "burden of evidence".

I agree with you. I think the part you quoted was from Bob, not something I said... I'm not saying I know god does not exist. The most accurate way to put it is "god does not feature among the things I believe to exist." Right alongside unicorns, real flying dragons out of mythology, godzilla, elves, etc... Lack of proof that something exists ≠ proof that it does not exist. However, I do think it's reasonable to suggest that lack of proof something exists = awfully good reason to not assume it does. It especially is a good reason to not expend so much effort convincing others of its existence, or regulating their lives on your assumption that it's real.

 

[momoceio]

Scientists don't pass off string theory or the big bang as fact...just a likely possibility. These aren't laws...they're theories.

 

[DaSchmarotzer]

I agree with you. I think the part you quoted was from Bob, not something I said... I'm not saying I know god does not exist. The most accurate way to put it is "god does not feature among the things I believe to exist." Right alongside unicorns, real flying dragons out of mythology, godzilla, elves, etc... Lack of proof that something exists ≠ proof that it does not exist. However, I do think it's reasonable to suggest that lack of proof something exists = awfully good reason to not assume it does. It especially is a good reason to not expend so much effort convincing others of its existence, or regulating their lives on your assumption that it's real.

Oh sorry, my mistake. I do agree with that.

 

[Stuntman]

Indeed you are. But since there is no verifiable proof someone/something other than God created the universe, there we go. Here we are, arguing something neither of us can prove or disprove.

Lack of proof that something other than God created the universe does not lead to the conclusion that God exists and created the universe.

One can find many scientists that disagree about how exactly things formed. A Big Bang created everything that can possibly exist is one theory. But to some, this is a silly idea because how can everything there is, possibly come from a grain of sand? Balderdash, I say. Ditto string theory and 35 seperate dimensions. Widely accepted and not proven.

There is evidence that supports the Big Bang theory. The theory predicts certain properties of the universe that can be measured with instruments. When you can observe these properties with instruments, it makes the theory more credible. I have yet to see any similar observations that verify God created the universe.

I'll say there is no God in the form most people understand. Just for the record. Of this I have faith and therefore, no proof needed.

So here you go: God created the heavens in seven days and 3 hours Mountain Standard Time with non-union labor, super mind waves, and magic solvents. Toss me a little verifiable evidence that my position is wrong. Remember, I have faith so I absolutely do not need proof.

Well, I'm going to need some convincing.

 

[Stuntman]

By the way, I just want to say that the "Big Bang Theory" is totally unrealisic, but I find it extremely entertaining to watch.

 

[AndyOpie150]

Ultimately It all boils down to this:we all bare the consequences for our free will,our right to choose(good or bad). I'm convinced that God exists,maybe your not. Only time will tell,or not. I firmly belive in the promise's and hope that God's word hold's out for mankind. When we die we go back to the ground were we wait as Job did for God to resurrect us to a paradise free from evil and wickedness(the cause for all are suffering). This is life eternal,that they might know thee the only true God,and Jesus Christ,whom thou hast sent. Let free will abound. If I'm right(I know I'm right) think what you could be missing out on. AndyOpie150