Root Important post by P3droid (For GB users especially)

[woodstorm]

Don't be so sure. Some of the key points in P3droid's post are incredibly frightening .

Spoke before reading the update. Post edited.

 

[Steven58]

I hate to be simplistic, but when gb goes ota, just flash back to .340 and take the update. Then find a way to root gb. If that's how they're tracking us.

 

[yawdapaah]

I hate to be simplistic, but when gb goes ota, just flash back to .340 and take the update. Then find a way to root gb. If that's hours they're tracking us.

That's precisely the problem. You'll be forced to stay on the stock rom. Depending on how far this goes there will be no removing bloat or modifications/themes.

If Moto/VZW decides that they want Bing instead of Google Search you may not have any recourse. What's next?

 

[mikepic]

Wait, aren't they tracking "if" someone accepts the OTA? If that's the case and you don't want your carrier knowing you rooted, can't you flash back to stock, accept OTA, then flash/sbf/restore back to your rooted install?

The carrier would see you as having accepted the OTA. If that's all their looking for then I'd think you satisfy their test.

 

[Metfanant]

I was away for the past two days, so this might turn into the longest post ever

i mean nothing personal in anything i say from here on out, just trying to catch up/speak my mind on the entire situation...

so in yalls opinion if Verizon do prevent us from tethering on X yall staying on 2.3.340 permanently?

This makes no difference in reality...VZW already knows you're rooted whether you're on GB leak or not...

I'm SBF'ing back to 340 and going to Liberty 2.0. Didn't understand what you meant by ROM'd.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with that move though, GB or Froyo, Stock, or Custom ROM...Big Brother knows who you are...it makes no difference...

unless you planned to SBF and stay on Stock Froyo...that might "work"

However, if I PAY for unlimited data, I should get unlimited data. Thank God I got a one year contract.

But that is completely incorrect...you pay for the unlimited data for your device, and any other device that is attached to that plan...you do NOT pay to allow your phone to share its data with other unauthorized devices...

Something like this wouldn't come from google. If I'm not mistaken google has stood in favor of rooting devices.

don't kid yourself...don't let yourself be convinced that Google is some white knight that is fighting against the evil empires of business on your behalf...Google is as neck deep in this crap as Moto, VZW, AT&T, HTC, and whoever else...

Why do you want me to pay again for data when I'm paying you for unlimited data already? How does that make sense..

because the unlimited data you're paying for has restrictions...

I posted / vented on another thread but please explain to me if tethering uses more band width? If my phone is using a certain amount of bandwidth and then routing it to say 3 other devices how does that increase bandwith usage and consequently cost the carrier money?

because you're using the service more...you're thinking of bandwidth in the terms of...

you've got a chunk of bandwidth, and you're sharing it between multiple devices...but that is not how it really works...everything that gets downloaded uses bandwidth...if you have two devices you're tethering...then you're using three times the bandwidth of just having your phone...

I am in the i pay for unlimited data its none of their business how i use it.

you would be right if you were talking about just your phone...but you're allowing unauthorized devices to use VERIZON'S bandwidth...

I don't see the point. I watch gaming streams on my phone and can use up (very easily) a lot of data. However, it pales in comparison to the data I use on my PC. The point of the tethering ban is not because you're paying/not paying for the feature. It's to limit data usage.
The question is, if you signed a contract to pay $30 for unlimited data, why should you be limited in the way you use that data?

you're still COMPLETELY missing the point of limiting tethering...it certainly IS about not paying for a feature...you're using a VZW service that you're not paying to use...

Secondly, I don't think it is just VZW, Moto, AT&T either. I think Google (yes Google) has their hands in it as well, either by choice or force. With Google not sharing the source code of Honeycomb and stating their intent is to control the fragmentation of Android, they are slowly closing the OS. It may not be as closed as iOS, but the days of total openness could be gone.

absolutely! +1...Google is in bed with these companies...they are just as responsible as any of the other people involved...

Needless to say, I am SBFing back to 340 as we speak. At this time, I am going to remain rooted and use LPP on top, as I think that runs the best on rooted/stock.

as far as i know, the damage has been done...you're phone would already be on the "list," and remaining rooted on Froyo will do you no good...this is not a GB related issue...

Stick it to 'em Google. Stick it to 'em real good!

we shouldn't have any love for Google in this situation either...if they wanted to stop this...they could...

And im on P3's side on this one. With everyone tethering and using BS stories for a warranty exchange when they knew what they were getting into when they rooted.

And to all who say tethering is ok: Its not. You pay for unlimited data for YOUR device. So if you argue that you can extend that unlimited service to other peripheral devices then that's the same as saying well then I pay for unlimited data for my phone so my wife should have unlimited data usage on her phone because you promised unlimited data. If you are a heavy tethering user pay the extra bucks a month and get a tethering plan.

110% agree!

To those in the "I pay for unlimited data and it's none of their business how I use it" bus...you pay for unlimited data on your phone...not your laptop/other device.

Now, with that said, I am a rooted user that does not use tethering and I see the bigger problem being those that monkey with their phone and are not willing to accept the consequences that come with hacking.

I have done my share of monkeying with my phone knowing full well that something could go wrong and I would be responsible for that, not Verizon or Moto/HTC.

Sure, it does come down to money as PACAnesFan was talking about. They're losing a lot of money to folks not reading directions and "bricking" their phones. A lot of these phones are fixable but folks panic and react with the knee jerk action that costs them the least amount of time/money. If they would take the time to read in the first place or after the fact they could fix these phones and we MIGHT not be where we're at today.

Just my $0.02...take it for what it's worth.

ABSOLUTELY!

This is not only about tethering. It's about rooting. It's about restricting you from running the newly Leaked GB rom, or Rubix, or Fission; those are all non-approved software. Tethering is just one facet of this issue folks.

absolutely, you are correct, tethering is just one of the issues...but how many posts have there been just on these forums of people saying...

"I'm going back to rooted Froyo because tethering is a necessity, GB is useless until they find a way around the tethering issue."

that tells you right there that tethering is used HEAVILY by certain people...and those people are costing VZW a lot of money...

Edit: I've used tethering less than 5 times. 4 of those times were to provide data to other VZW phones. I don't even think I've used 5MB of data on it. However, I don't condemn people that do it (i'm not in the position to judge them).
I am frustrated that this has become an argument on tethering when it's only part of the issue.

frankly, those that use it SHOULD be condemned...when you break it down they are committing a theft of services...they are connecting unauthorized devices to Verizon's network...something VZW is COMPLETELY within their right to prohibit...

you are COMPLETELY right however in that tethering is just a part of this...

That's the most disturbing part actually, I could care less about the tethering aspect.

locking things down comes from the other factors...people returning phones that they "bricked" by messing with them...

Yeah I cringed when I read that rooting could trigger a flag on the carrier's end. Such a bummer to think about...

COULD?...don't be naive...VZW knew the first time you rooted Froyo...they just might not have been looking...

Is root detection actually implemented into GB already, or is that for the future and we're jumping the gun here?

root detection has probably been implemented since before the X was released...im positive that VZW can tell the difference between rooted and un-rooted phones on their network...

Tethering isn't nearly as big of a deal as its being made out to be. I can't get high speed internet at my house. So I've used my phone to tether my xbox or desktop. The amount of data is no higher than my regular usage just on my phone, and is lower sometimes. Xbox live games really don't use much bandwidth. I can play black ops for hours and be under 100 mb. My phone is my main internet browser and I'll connect the computer if I need to use it instead. Instead of charging extra for tethering, they just need to make the tiered data plans and include tethering with overage charges. Bam. Tethering issue fixed. The problem is with people bricking their device by messing with it. Then taking it in to be replaced. This is costing them a lot of money. And the only way to stop this is by knowing who has rooted and voided the warranty.

No, it is a HUGE deal...regardless of the amount of data you're using...you're STEALING IT...you are STEALING that bandwidth from Verizon...theft of services is punishable by law...be thankful VZW isn't taking that route...

Lol, and that's where Google is coming into the picture. I for one hope Google nails these suckers.

they won't...they stand to lose way too much money...

OMG, I'd better stop reading before my image of TBH is shattered. I used to think they were some bad ass hackers, not 'mellow dramatic princesses'. I've yet to hear anything even remotely surprising or disheartening.

All the stuff he shared with us has been talked about since before I picked up my first Android device last July. Who cares if the head of Verizon himself is the source that's saying it now, it hasn't made the last 9 months with my DX anything short of spectacular. Why is anybody sobbing in their beer right now?

Because it just might turn out that Verizon has us on a list and is currently tracking us? Ha, since when is that news? Verizon has had me on their list for the past 5 years, ever since I called them up and told them to put me on it... it's that list they keep of people who pay them money.

Oh yeah, and as for tracking me, they've been doing that for the past 5 years as well. They track me with this thing they call a cell phone. They gave one to me after I gave them $200 dollars. Then they assigned me a telephone number with which they track my every move with. I know because they send me this thing in the mail once a month that shows me EVERYTHING I've been doing on it for the past 30 days. Gasp.... can you believe it???

Yeah, put this in perspective and let's just get a grip shall we. This is all laughable.

true...very true...

I hate to be simplistic, but when gb goes ota, just flash back to .340 and take the update. Then find a way to root gb. If that's hours they're tracking us.

yes...this is pretty much what i planned to do from the start...i will say that i will miss some root apps...(titanium, overclock, etc...) but i will deal...and have always planned on accepting the OTA...

 

[gmenfan83]

Wait, aren't they tracking "if" someone accepts the OTA? If that's the case and you don't want your carrier knowing you rooted, can't you flash back to stock, accept OTA, then flash/sbf/restore back to your rooted install?

The carrier would see you as having accepted the OTA. If that's all their looking for then I'd think you satisfy their test.

Well the only issue here would be restoring your backup ,,,if the ota changes the boot loader and kernel then your backups become useless and if you flash them you will def have a brick

 

[Metfanant]

Well the only issue here would be restoring your backup ,,,if the ota changes the boot loader and kernel then your backups become useless and if you flash them you will def have a brick

and VZW/Moto surely know this...

 

[faber78]

yeah, i dont see this going anywhere positive.
and like someone else says....this all went from fun tinkering to sucky fast....
think, personnaly; im gonna stay on fis261....take some time off and find another hobby....getting to where i can work on my grandpas old truck and the wife is starting a garden....ive pretty much learned all i wanted to learn with android. it will prob. be ruined anyway.
im fine with the two themes i run and the rom im on. i figure why worry about it, but im not taking anymore updates....which will put me behind on any dev. work that comes out and useless to work any themes. (yes, i understand the "already been tracked....etc. etc." statement). im just saying what im gonna do.

gentlemen, its a beautiful day outside and im gonna find something else to do....
its been a pleasure, ill see you guys around now and again....

 

[droidpcguru]

I see a class action lawsuit coming.. Customers VS carriers. There are plenty of us out there that just want freedom and customization, and NOT to circumvent their plans fees, etc. For the "honest" rooters, the carriers will have to back down.

 

[Metfanant]

I see a class action lawsuit coming.. Customers VS carriers. There are plenty of us out there that just want freedom and customization, and NOT to circumvent their plans fees, etc. For the "honest" rooters, the carriers will have to back down.

to be perfectly clear...there isn't really anything "honest" about rooting anyway...you're still messing with things that are intended to not be messed with...

yeah, i dont see this going anywhere positive.
and like someone else says....this all went from fun tinkering to sucky fast....
think, personnaly; im gonna stay on fis261....take some time off and find another hobby....getting to where i can work on my grandpas old truck and the wife is starting a garden....ive pretty much learned all i wanted to learn with android. it will prob. be ruined anyway.
im fine with the two themes i run and the rom im on. i figure why worry about it, but im not taking anymore updates....which will put me behind on any dev. work that comes out and useless to work any themes. (yes, i understand the "already been tracked....etc. etc." statement). im just saying what im gonna do.

gentlemen, its a beautiful day outside and im gonna find something else to do....
its been a pleasure, ill see you guys around now and again....

CHEERS!...i disagree personally with your decisions to no longer take updates, as i will...but you've taken a very good outlook on the whole situation...at the end of the day this is a hobby...and its really crappy that one of our hobbies is going to potentially have the "funness" (for lack of a real word) taken out of it...but there is more to life, and we need to enjoy that as well...

however..it is really crappy to think that these companies, and i mean all of them, not just VZW/Moto...but Google and everyone else as well...are potentially going to take away the thing that brought all of us together here on these forums...

 

[gmenfan83]

I see a class action lawsuit coming.. Customers VS carriers. There are plenty of us out there that just want freedom and customization, and NOT to circumvent their plans fees, etc. For the "honest" rooters, the carriers will have to back down.

Wouldn't this be nice,,,,if anyone thinks for one minute a voice from the 5% of us who are rooted matters to a company that will make billions with or without us they are 100% wrong,,,,this is their world not ours ,,,we need them way more then they need us and they go on profiting regardless of what we do

 

[dvader]

Really this is not needed ...as I said in my earlier posts if someone wants to something to their device like sbf since they are worried let them ...its their decision and to be honest if it affects you that much to the point where it needs to be commented on then maybe other avenues of occupying your time would be better sought after ....in the same time it takes to make a sarcastic comment you could be typing something useful

if it's needed or not is irrelevant.
i felt the need to express a point and i did so.
my feeling is that this is nothing more than speculation.
people should NOT be scared.
further, I'm 100% positive my comments will have zero effect on what people do with there phones.

 

[Deleted User]

There are a lot of chicken littles in this thread.

The sky isn't falling... All of these companies still rely on their customers - and you guys are delusionsal if you think at least one carrier or phone vendor isn't going to recognize the market of rooters/modders.

 

[yawdapaah]

Hah, Metfan, I was wondering where you were. I thought you'ld be all over this.

I doubt that Google will sit around and watch the carriers do this. Moto doesn't pay an licensing fees for Android. The stand to lose some of that Ad money but Android is where it is because of the techies like us. I doubt that the partners would be infuriated by Google's new stance.

Google Tightens Its Grip On Android, Infuriating Partners

And I'll say this about tethering; you guys are completely right about the legality and, by extension, that tether users are cheating VZW if they don't pay for it. However, if I use it in certain VERY LIMITED circumstances (I'm still on GB so it's obviously not important to me) why should I pay $20 a month? My problem is not with the legality of it but with the morality of it (and yes, I know VZW/Moto couldn't care less about morals).

Eitherway, let's hear your counterpoints Metfan. (I guess this is round two LOL).

 

[Metfanant]

Hah, Metfan, I was wondering where you were. I thought you'ld be all over this.

I doubt that Google will sit around and watch the carriers do this. Moto doesn't pay an licensing fees for Android. The stand to lose some of that Ad money but Android is where it is because of the techies like us. I doubt that the partners would be infuriated by Google's new stance.

sit around and watch them do what? protect their services from being stolen by users??...

I'm just not following here...Google has only one hand to play here...saying to Moto/VZW...

"if you do this, then you will lose us as a partner"

but they won't because they stand to lose just as much money...

Particularly in regards to tethering, Google can't say ANYTHING...sure they provide the ability within the OS itself, but at the end of the day the service is provided not by Google, or Motorola...but by VZW/AT&T/Sprint/etc...it is their data and bandwidth we as a group are illegally accessing...they have every right to prevent this...

Google Tightens Its Grip On Android, Infuriating Partners

this alone should prove that Google doesn't really care about any of us...

And I'll say this about tethering; you guys are completely right about the legality and, by extension, that tether users are cheating VZW if they don't pay for it.

right...

However, if I use it in certain VERY LIMITED circumstances (I'm still on GB so it's obviously not important to me) why should I pay $20 a month? My problem is not with the legality of it but with the morality of it (and yes, I know VZW/Moto couldn't care less about morals).

are you saying that morally you feel it is alright to steal just a little bit, but not a lot?...because who's job is it to quantify what is "a little bit" and what is "a lot?"

or are you saying you would like to use it a little bit, and pay less than the $20 per month...maybe in a pay as you go sense...

 

[Deleted User]

I agree that morally it seems like a grey area for limited tethering, which is why I advocate for a pure metered approach. If everything is metered, the source of the traffic is irrelevant. Tether away, and don't pay for months where you don't use it.

 

[colchiro]

this all went from fun tinkering to sucky fast....
think, personnaly; im gonna stay on fis261....take some time off and find another hobby....

Barnes and Noble has their Nook Color for $250, and it's easy to root and convert it into a totally unlocked 7" tablet with CM7, GB, Froyo, HoneyComb, anything you want. It's dang-near impossible to brick and I've hardly touched my dinky X since getting this toy.

 

[Metfanant]

I agree that morally it seems like a grey area for limited tethering, which is why I advocate for a pure metered approach. If everything is metered, the source of the traffic is irrelevant. Tether away, and don't pay for months where you don't use it.

agree completely...im guilty of firing up the tether app just to see how it worked once or twice, and showing a couple of people how it works...do i think i should have to pay $20 to do that? no i don't...but i can't get pissed at Verizon for trying to block me from doing so...

 

[yawdapaah]

I agree that morally it seems like a grey area for limited tethering, which is why I advocate for a pure metered approach. If everything is metered, the source of the traffic is irrelevant. Tether away, and don't pay for months where you don't use it.

Absolutely. However, that option is not available to us. I knew what I was doing every time I tethered but "$20 a month" or "don't use it at all" are unreasonable choices especially when I pay $30 for data and considering that I've probably not exceeded 10MB via tether.

Stealing is stealing, whether or not I steal a bit or a lot. However, it is grossly unfair for me to pay $20 for such minor usage. As stated above, pay as you go would be the optimal solution for this.

 

[Metfanant]

Absolutely. However, that option is not available to us. I knew what I was doing every time I tethered but "$20 a month" or "don't use it at all" are unreasonable choices especially when I pay $30 for data.

if you remove the "especially when I pay $30 for data." part...then we are in COMPLETE agreement

 

[gmenfan83]

I agree that morally it seems like a grey area for limited tethering, which is why I advocate for a pure metered approach. If everything is metered, the source of the traffic is irrelevant. Tether away, and don't pay for months where you don't use it.

+1

 

[yawdapaah]

Metfan, I don't understand why you think Google's new stance is against consumers. Please explain.
Thanks

 

[FragDroidX]

Wouldn't this be nice,,,,if anyone thinks for one minute a voice from the 5% of us who are rooted matters to a company that will make billions with or without us they are 100% wrong,,,,this is their world not ours ,,,we need them way more then they need us and they go on profiting regardless of what we do

Yes and no. While this will only be an issue for those of us that root this could turn into a HUGE PR nightmare for Verizon/Motorola. The headline "Verizon wireless and Motorola are installing software on smartphones that track users software and surfing habits without the consumers knowlage or consent" or "Verizon wireless and Motorola installing software to SPY on consumers" is sure to get much more than 5% of its customers to take notice. When that happens lets see what comes of this.

 

[gmenfan83]

Yes and no. While this will only be an issue for those of us that root this could turn into a HUGE PR nightmare for Verizon/Motorola. The headline "Verizon wireless and Motorola are installing software on smartphones that track users software and surfing habits without the consumers knowlage or consent" or "Verizon wireless and Motorola installing software to SPY on consumers" is sure to get much more than 5% of its customers to take notice. When that happens lets see what comes of this.

i can see where you and binary are making points here dont get me wrong.But i also feel that with or without us they make money i mean really as stated earlier if you took 100 users and asked them about all this they would not know,,,i have many friends and come across many people who use android and hardly any of them have any idea about any of this and in fact think im nuts lol,,,all im saying is the show does not stop with us

 

[Metfanant]

Metfan, I don't understand why you think Google's new stance is against consumers. Please explain.
Thanks

because they going back on their promise of an open source operating system that is free to be tinkered with in any way...

- They are restricting what their partners can do with Android:

Now, this can be looked at as a good thing in the sense that (as the article points out) it allows for more consistency in the devices, and you won't get as many bugs related to tweaks made by manufacturers...

BUTTTTT....its walking a thin line because in essence it is Google telling you what is best for you...very much in the same way Apple treats iOS...Google knows whats best for you and you're phone, and if they don't like what someone else wants to offer you (Bing, maybe a third party navigation app?) they can deny it, without you (the consumer) having any say...

- the "approval process"

If this article is correct that Google has veto power over tweaks to Android, and needs to approve code (the article talks about Facebook)...then guess what?...the dreaded "call home" tweaks that Moto/VZW has put on our phone....were approved by Google...makes you think no??