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Anti-Islamic Propoganda

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Okay that is fine... but do not call the Bible flawless...because... it is not...

Please i mean no harm...

Keep well :)

The Bible, as it exists in the extant manuscripts that we have access to today, is flawless in content, with the exception of trivial translational differences in duplication, arrangement, passages that may be missing in some manuscripts but that are present in the larger body of evidence, etc. There are also slight differences between various collections, such as the Textus Receptus versus the Latin Vulgate, etc, but when the entire body of evidence is weighed, there is more extant manuscript evidence for the Bible than any other piece of literature that we have access to.

And I mean you no harm either. :)
 
The Bible, as it exists in the extant manuscripts that we have access to today, is flawless in content, with the exception of trivial translational differences in duplication, arrangement, passages that may be missing in some manuscripts but that are present in the larger body of evidence, etc. There are also slight differences between various collections, such as the Textus Receptus versus the Latin Vulgate, etc, but when the entire body of evidence is weighed, there is more extant manuscript evidence for the Bible than any other piece of literature that we have access to.

And I mean you no harm either. :)

I understand your views but..... you must understand the Bible does indeed have serious flaws...
 
The Bible, the Que'Ran and the Torah need to be taken in for what they are and nothing more. A collection of stories that lay the groundwork for basic morality.

I don't want to go into the fact that they are obviously fictitious in nature, nor that they all seem to stem from the same basic stories probably from some religion long forgotten.

It is when we look past these moral teachings and try to find a deeper meaning that we run into problems. Religious books should be guidelines not law.
 
That truly shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of genuine Christianity. The Jesus mentioned in the Koran is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible claims to be not only the Son of God, but also God Himself. The Koran says that Allah is one and he has no son. The Koran says that Jesus is merely a prophet, not God. Jesus says that He is the only path to heaven, the Jesus of the Koran never says this.

They differ on the details, but Islam is to Christianity, what Christianity is to Judaism. They are talking about the very same God. Now, Mohammed may be a false prophet, but their religion stems from worshipping the SAME God.

Although this just scratches the surface, you can rest assured, that the god of the Koran and the God of the Bible are not the same person. Christianity is an exclusive religion. This means that all other religions are excluded from being the truth. Islam is also an exclusive religion, and claims to be the only truth. It is logically impossible for both of them to worship the same God.

You have pointed out things that you think they get wrong about God, but you haven't pointed out anything that would indicate that they worship a DIFFERENT God.
 
I don't want to go into the fact that they are obviously fictitious in nature, nor that they all seem to stem from the same basic stories probably from some religion long forgotten.

They all seem to stem from the same basic stories, because they all started as the SAME religion, Judaism.

Judaism begat Christianity, which begat Islam.

There are even documents that are believed to be written by Mohammed where he orders his followers to protect Christians from Aggressors.
 
You have been misguided. Anytime you read a verse that says anything of the sort please read the context around it too...

orly?

Way to refute a single line of a rather lengthy explanation with absolutely NO conjecture or evidence. You in politics?

Well, here are all of the instances where violence are mentioned. Please.... enlighten me. :rolleyes:

Question:
Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?

Summary Answer:
The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, most of the verses of violence in the Quran are open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah
 
Well. So much for the OP's propaganda theory.


Oh its propoganda all right:
The text from the video is fully transcribed below – word for word. Following the transcription is my response – a personal checking of the facts – all readily available on the Internet via a few, quick Google searches.

I ignored Snopes.com and other myth-busting websites. No, sir.

Those sites are for wimps and lazy-folk.

I used real government data wherever and whenever I could. I used news articles. I used websites that referenced their own factual sources. Interestingly, I found many others who have done the same with respect to debunking the video. (Apparently, I’m not the only one feeling duped.)

Some of what I’ve written is strictly my opinion (and mine alone.) Take it for whatever you feel it’s worth. But know that I reached my conclusions from the rational linking of data and facts and a whole lot of reading.

So here we go...

Imagine the below text narrated by a professional-sounding, middle-aged man. The tone is of muted disgust and sounds terrifyingly dire.

The world is changing….
The global culture our children inherit will be vastly different than what it is today…
You are about to witness a report on the world’s changing demographics...

According to research, in order for a culture to maintain itself for more than 25 years, there must be a fertility rate of 2.11 children per family. With anything less, the culture will decline.

Everything I’ve read reveals, in fact, that 2.11 children per family is the minimum replacement-level fertility rate among nations: One child each to replace the parents and .11 more to cover the children who die – tragically – prior to reaching the age of reproduction.

Let’s take a closer look at the statement, specifically the assertion that “With anything less, the culture will decline.”

OPINION: This is an interesting phrase and use of the word “culture”. The anthropological definition of “culture” refers to “the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.” In other words, the traditions, food choices, entertainment options, etc. we pass on to our children and so on.

The right word would be “population”, not “culture”. Populations decline, not cultures. Cultures evolve. Continually. Always and forever. It is unstoppable.

By stating that “the culture will decline” the video is setting us up. We’re meant to fear a drop in fertility rate or life as we know it will be something less than what it is now. Of course, the culture won’t be less, it will just be different.

Before you accuse me of playing a game of semantics, let me point out that throughout the video, the producers prey on your emotions by using certain words and phrases to set you up with fear. When someone is afraid, reason gets pushed aside and instinct and survival tactics take over. Rational, analytical thought takes a back seat. The video seeks to push your critical decision-making processes out of the way to make sure its message gets through.

This is manipulation.
You are being set up.
The fact that the video hasn’t yet lied to you is immaterial.

VIDEO NARRATION

Historically, no culture has ever reversed a 1.9 fertility rate. A rate of 1.3; impossible to reverse. Because it would take 80 to 100 years to correct itself. And there is no economic model that can sustain a culture during that time.


To keep things in perspective, a fertility rate of 1.9 means that in 100 years the population of a given society would have decreased by a mere 15%. A drop for sure, but nothing precipitous. And it took five generations to get there.

But it is here where we encounter our first lie: France reversed a sub-1.9 fertility rate just a few years ago. Sweden had a 1.5 fertility rate in the 1970s. By 1990, it was up to 2.1. Six years later it reverted back to 1.5. These swings occurred for no discernable reason.

In fact, most advanced societies on earth achieved their lowest fertility rates (around 1.5) circa 1980, then recovered partially. (Source: Family Formation and Family Dilemmas in Contemporary Europe, Gosta-Esping Andersen, Pompeu Fabra University.)

The point is, swings in fertility typically and naturally occur in a society. There was no governmental or scientific intervention that caused the increase or decrease. No wars, no disease, no famine. It just happened. It goes without saying that declining fertility rates and population decline are not inevitable. There are myriad complex and interrelated variables that cause the swings.

VIDEO NARRATION

In other words, if two sets of parents each have one child, there are half as many children as parents. If those children have one child, then there are
 
Just a friendly warning here, fellas.... please keep the debate civil, rational and free of prejudice/hate to avoid any trouble. Be aware that, as a committed agnostic, I have no axes to grind and will issue infraction where necessary regardless of belief. ;)
 
Just a friendly warning here, fellas.... please keep the debate civil, rational and free of prejudice/hate to avoid any trouble. Be aware that, as a committed agnostic, I have no axes to grind and will issue infraction where necessary regardless of belief. ;)

Heheheeee! ;)

Hahahaaa ja the slug is actually right here guys.... u guys r getting a bit out of hand....

I mean no harm... so don't bombard me with stuff :) lol
 
THX Sav

Also as an EU citizen I'd like to point out that we have 27 sovereign[ish] Member states and 30 nations

Add Macedonia and Croatia to that (who will join at same time) will bring that to 29/32

More proof of bullshit with the 31 remark



EDIT: When Turkey joins (2025 my guess) it will be the largest member state by then (70 million ppl now), and is currently 99% Muslim

Anyway its a secular NATO state, and I have no problems with it joining apart from the resource drain and those kurdish terrorists
 
this is the political thread.. its for debating.. I have yet to insult anyone.

The topic of the thread was anti-islamic propoganda. And is still on topic
 
I owe you an apology, savoxis. Clearly the video is propaganda designed to instill fear, and I stand corrected. Your research was first rate and very thorough.

They would have been better served by making a video in a slideshow format that showed nothing but the vitriolic yet direct quotes from the Qu'ran that OstrichSak provided above. No narrative would have been necessary. It would be quite effective.
 
I owe you an apology, savoxis. Clearly the video is propaganda designed to instill fear, and I stand corrected. Your research was first rate and very thorough.

They would have been better served by making a video in a slideshow format that showed nothing but the vitriolic yet direct quotes from the Qu'ran that OstrichSak provided above. No narrative would have been necessary. It would be quite effective.

I say again, You cannot take verses out of context.. here are some bible ones I found (Out of context)

1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.


-----
Before you go on to argue that the bible doesn't really promote violence...

STOP

I am just proving the point that if you take something out of context it makes propaganda crap like this video.


(Verses came from http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm)
 
So, you took nine partial sentences from the bible and that somehow compares to ENTIRE excerpts and versus totaling 109 that I posted? 9 Partial sentences and clippings are out of context and coincidence. One hundred and nine complete ideas and verses are NOT a coincidence and point more to a trend if not an outright way of teaching.

You still fail to understand... They are out of context.. but whatever. Believe what you want.
 
You still fail to understand... They are out of context.. but whatever. Believe what you want.

They are complete verses and ideas. I think it is you who fails to understand. I asked you 'enlighten me' and instead you try to bring the Christian Bible into question... this proves me wrong how? Assuming I'm Christian is your first mistake. Trying to bring up another subject to dissuade attention from my point was your second. Now you want to tell me to believe what I want? So now you give my beliefs your blessing? Strike three? Sounds like someone knows when they're attempts to divert attention have failed. Again, are you in politics? You clearly aren't in theology otherwise you could easily prove that all 109 examples I posted are really about puppies, love and happiness but I guess you're too busy dodging the discussion to try to present fact as your argument. Or could it be that there are none to support your stance other than conjecture and what you heard on the news? You too can believe what you want but I urge you to do your own research and not just believe what you are told to believe.
 
I think you meant to say, "couldn't care less." "Could care less" means that you do care.

If you wish to be counted among unbelivers, that is your perogative. An unwise one, but yours never the less. However, I was addressing savoxis, not you, so just the fact that you had to jump in and say that you don't care shows that you must. Perhaps you aren't the apathetic person that you are ostensibly trying to portray. ;)


word :D
 
Just a friendly warning here, fellas.... please keep the debate civil, rational and free of prejudice/hate to avoid any trouble. Be aware that, as a committed agnostic, I have no axes to grind and will issue infraction where necessary regardless of belief. ;)

I believe your breath smells like dill pickles....:D:D

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time taking these debates seriously anymore.
 
They are complete verses and ideas..

No they are not, Again I will say it they are out of context.. do I need to say it more? you obviously didn't research anything but the one anti-islam site you found.
Hold on let me copy and paste like you did

Other critics of Islam found: "Kill them wherever you catch them. . . " (2:191), ". . . But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them. (In any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (4:89), and similar verses.

When placed within their textual and historical contexts, however, their true meanings emerge:

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there. If they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression and justice and faith in Allah prevail. If they cease, engage in hostility only against those who practice oppression. There is the law of equality of for the prohibited months, and so for all things prohibited. If any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress likewise against him. But be conscious of Allah and know that He is with those who restrain themselves" (2:190-194).

The other verses read: "They hope that you will reject faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they). So do not take friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). If they become renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them. (In any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks, except for those who join a group with whom you have a (peace) treaty or those who approach you with hearts calling upon them to be neutral. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah has opened no way for you (to fight them). You will find others who wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they succumb to it. If they do not withdraw from you or give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear argument against them" (4:89-91).

Nowhere do these verses give general permission to kill any one. They were revealed to Prophet Muhammad at the time when the nonbelievers were attacking Makkah's Muslims and threatening those in Madinah. In contemporary jargon we may say that as the Muslims were subject to constant terrorist attacks on Madinah, Allah allowed them to defend themselves. These verses do not allow Muslims to engage in terrorism; rather, they are warnings against terrorism, but they also contain clear calls for restraint and care.

Religious texts, if not read within their proper textual and historical contexts, are easily manipulated and distorted

I think it is you who fails to understand. I asked you 'enlighten me' and instead you try to bring the Christian Bible into question...

I didn't bring the bible into question. I pulled things out of context like you did to prove a point.

this proves me wrong how? Assuming I'm Christian is your first mistake.

When did I assume this? The only thing I assumed was that you were another American that is completely misinformed about muslims.

Trying to bring up another subject to dissuade attention from my point was your second.

I have still yet to change the subject...


Now you want to tell me to believe what I want? So now you give my beliefs your blessing? Strike three?
When did I say you have my blessing?
I was simply backing down because I am not going to go back and forth with you when you are just going to say the same thing over and over again. I have my wife for that.

Sounds like someone knows when they're attempts to divert attention have failed.

Divert what attention?

Again, are you in politics? You clearly aren't in theology otherwise you could easily prove that all 109 examples I posted are really about puppies, love and happiness
lol... I am not Muslim, So I am not going to defend their quran. I was simply saying you cannot rip things out of context. But you may be right, I have several Muslim friends.. Should I start counting the days till they kill me?

but I guess you're too busy dodging the discussion to try to present fact as your argument.
Again I havent dodged anything, And again.. all you did was copy and pasted 1 website to try and create an arguement.

Or could it be that there are none to support your stance other than conjecture and what you heard on the news?
Because Muslims are not violent is exactly what the news is saying right now.... No. It is the exact opposite... So maybe you are secretly talking to yourself here?

You too can believe what you want but I urge you to do your own research and not just believe what you are told to believe
Says the person who copied one website and called it research.
 
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