Feedback on Tethering - merged from PSA threads

[EarlyMon]

ok i may have read this a lil wrong,its 2:49 am for me, but i read every ones post, now i sorta see where you guys are coming from, but i must clarify something. In a few post i read that this site may run into legal problems and such but in no way shape or from is tethering illegal...

Agreed. It's a contract violation.

We aren't concerned with legal problems. We are concerned with a basic policy of honesty.

We don't allow discussions on how to pirate software or how to commit insurance fraud with your phone or how to violate your contract in ways where you don't pay for services. That's not because we're looking at liabilities or because we're in anyone's pockets.

It's simply an honesty policy that the site owner has dictated in simple terms.

This does apply to others in a way because there is an option and they stealing from a company from making money from users with a tethering plan , which is stupid in my view, but with metro said plan is not available so we are not stealing just breaking the TOS the very same way we are breaking the TOS in regards to rooting in the first place.

I think a re-read of things here in the daytime will clarify things.

Rooting can't be against your ToS. For one, the courts have found that to be unconscionable. For two, if there must be a two, rooting is between you and your phone, it doesn't affect anything concerning honesty of paying for services.

Stealing is a simple term. There are many obvious uses for the word and there's no need to narrow it down to a legal definition.

My wife stole my heart. No crime was committed. The little ones stole some cookies from the jar. No one is getting punished (at my house anyway). Money was stolen from a bank. Someone's going to jail.

Someone offers you a service and you accept. You take more and don't pay for it. We have to choose a word that describes getting something for nothing that you're not supposed to get. I choose the words theft and stealing because that seems to be just what it is. I never said anyone should go to jail.

If your carrier doesn't offer you the services you need at the price you want then all I can say with great honesty and zero sarcasm is, welcome to the club, we are all in that boat, one way or another.

Doesn't make us the bad guys. We're being consistent. If you don't want pay for something - software, a phone you broke not covered by insurance, carrier bandwidth - we're not going to help.

If Metro won't offer you a hotspot or tether plan, but says you can't anyway, your problem is with them, not with us for not helping you get around them.

 

[EarlyMon]

Everyone's asking us questions and I love that - personally, I love to chat and I don't see anything wrong with questions.

So, let me ask one.

If you can't tether according to the contract you signed with your carrier, what would you like us to do about it?

 

[dautley]

Everyone's asking us questions and I love that - personally, I love to chat and I don't see anything wrong with questions.

So, let me ask one.

If you can't tether according to the contract you signed with your carrier, what would you like us to do about it?

I wouldn't expect, nor have I ever expected AF to do anything about it but I don't think AF should go out of it's way to block custom ROM's or tools that may enhance the capabilities of Android phones either, If your going to end up banning discussion of anything you can't do with a phone and it's stock ROM why even have AF? Just shut it down, send everyone to XDA, and be done with it. I'm just saying a forum like this one doesn't get a lot of questions about how do I make a phone call or use Google Maps on my Android?

 

[EarlyMon]

We are not blocking custom ROMs.

Please don't exaggerate our position and say such things.

Tether is not enhancing your Android phone, it's using your Android phone to enhance your internet experience on other devices. That's another thing entirely.

Your characterization of our position is not only false, it's blatantly unfair.

And as you ought well know, the number of people that care about tethering is a small percentage. Telling us to close up shop because you want us to support discussions of how to rip someone off is ridiculous.

And given the support I showed in the Ally forum when you cats needed help - and you know I did - with getting into your phones and customizing them, defending users here and rom devs alike, your charges expecting me to cop to that is downright ludicrous.

 

[OfTheDamned]

I wouldn't expect, nor have I ever expected AF to do anything about it but I don't think AF should go out of it's way to block custom ROM's or tools that may enhance the capabilities of Android phones either, If your going to end up banning discussion of anything you can't do with a phone and it's stock ROM why even have AF? Just shut it down, send everyone to XDA, and be done with it. I'm just saying a forum like this one doesn't get a lot of questions about how do I make a phone call or use Google Maps on my Android?

We aren't blocking ROMs and we aren't blocking tools. The only things that we are putting a stop to are the discussion about getting tethering for free as well as how to trick a carrier into taking a broken phone back (really we have always had this stance on fraud, but it is spelled out a little better now). Beyond that, this is the same forum it has always been. If you look at it from a different angle, the only thing we are really doing is removing and/or stopping threads that involve, "How to I get ________ for free from my carrier when I would normally have to pay extra for it or they don't allow it at all?"

As far as how do I make a phone call or use Google Maps, we don't see many of those specific threads anymore, but there are plenty of discussions that occur that don't involve tethering, rooting, ROMs, apps, etc. on the forum every day.

 

[dautley]

I'm not accusing AF of blocking anything or even saying anything about tethering, nor do I want to see AF close up shop. Just saying AF shouldn't ever do these things as Android is at least in theory a "open" OS.
Truth be told I am having trouble seeing how this new "policy" changes anything going on here at AF with the exception of causing this long drawn out thread.

 

[EarlyMon]

Because Android is open, should we allow discussion of how to get paid apps for free? That's out in the open.

Remember what Richard Stallman has always said about open software - it's free as in speech not free as in beer.

 

[dautley]

Because Android is open, should we allow discussion of how to get paid apps for free? That's out in the open.

Remember what Richard Stallman has always said about open software - it's free as in speech not free as in beer.

AF should follow the law of course, like anti-piracy laws, but every time a carrier wants to say a feature they offer can only be used in a particular way does that automatically make it law? If a carrier decides to say GPS can only be used with it's own software that will cost x$ a month will using GPS features with Google Maps all of a sudden be stealing GPS? Where do you draw the line? It's up to our legal system to figure out as far as I'm concerned. Of course if one decides to violate the carrier's TOS they to so at their own risk...

 

[EarlyMon]

AF should follow the law of course, like anti-piracy laws, but every time a carrier wants to say a feature they offer can only be used in a particular way does that automatically make it law? If a carrier decides to say GPS can only be used with it's own software that will cost x$ a month will using GPS features with Google Maps all of a sudden be stealing GPS? Where do you draw the line? It's up to our legal system to figure out as far as I'm concerned. Of course if one decides to violate the carrier's TOS they to so at their own risk...

I don't think it's about the law. Others are saying that, not mod staff.

Contracts are civil matters, not criminal matters. Governments make laws, not carriers. I think we all know that.

While extreme, I see your point about bypassing nav with Google maps.

Here's the whole line-drawing thing for us: the site owner, a single individual, Rob, decides what his conscience allows. He expresses it to the site Admin, Phases. Phases puts it into words we can all grok. Then guides help get the word out, and mods enforce the policy - if we disagree, we're free to surrender our staff positions.

It's not some lengthy process involving detailed examination of the criminal and contract law.

It's a matter of conscience by the site owner. I have read his words privately expressed to us. This isn't about liability or anything like that. It's about his conscience and his sense of what's right and why.

And I can see where he's coming from.

When something changes, such as what anyone may hypothesize, like that GPS thing, we'll deal with that if and when the time comes.

 

[dautley]

EarlyMon, I 100% agree with you, it's Rob's site and he is the owner and is 100% entitled to run it as he sees fit and Phases, mods and us users have to fall into line. That's just how it is.
I mean no disrespect to Rob or anyone else when I say this, but when I read "It's a matter of conscience by the site owner" then look at the top of the page and see those Verizon advertizing banners, I just can't help but wonder if the focus of what AF has always been about (it's users) is shifting just a bit.
Again this is not meant to question anyone's authority or intentions. Just pointing something out I'm sure others have noticed but may have not commented on for obvious reasons.
After saying that I will also say that I have and will continue to contribute to AF as a premium user because I find it a very useful resource.

 

[EarlyMon]

I'm glad to have you here - as a mod, I lurk, and have read lots of your posts.

Well, it is what it is. And the advertising thing has been questioned, but all I know is what's said. Being the trusting type, I take it at face value.

 

[Gmash]

Does anybody have any suggestions of forums that care more about their members than their corporate overlords?($) This really makes me question whether I want to be here anymore. (and I don't even use this feature, it's just the principal of it) Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[Martimus]

Does anybody have any suggestions of forums that care more about their members than their corporate overlords?($) This really makes me question whether I want to be here anymore. (and I don't even use this feature, it's just the principal of it) Thanks for any suggestions.

Well we will be sorry to see you go!

The choice made by the site owner of Android Forums is not being made for financial gain. This choice was made for legal and ethical reasons. Some carriers have adopted the attitude that tethering without a contract is a violation of their terms of service, and is a theft of service. Well I can't specifically speak to where you live, but in many places, theft (even of a "soft" product like internet access) is considered to be a criminal offense. Criminal offenses are covered under the local governments criminal statutes. And the penalty for committing a criminal offense can range from a fine to jail time.

Now most of us believe that tethering is not and should not be considered a crime. Unfortunately, however, few (if any) of us are lawmakers and have any control over how each community establishes and enforces it's laws. If the local community considers the individual to be in violation of the law, it's possible that they could also look for accessories to this crime. And based on current events, Android Forums would be at risk of being accused as an "accessory before the fact". To be exonerated of this charge, the owner of Android Forums would have to go to the region in question, and plead his case to the judge (magistrate) assigned to the case. Well if this if taking place on the opposite side of the country (or, for that matter, in another country). this would require the travel, the services of a local lawyer (barrister), numerous court appearances, and a lot of litigation. Litigation costs an obscene amount of money.

Are you aware of the issues that the company that owns Megaupload is presently going through? The officers of the corporation didn't necessarily upload any copyrighted materials to their servers. Subscribers to their service most likely did. But the officers of the corporation (and the corporation in general) are being held responsible for the actions of others. In this case the prosecution is taking place in U.S. Federal court. The principals of the corporation live in other countries and the corporate offices are in Hong Kong (China). Even though these individuals should be held to the laws of their specific region, they are likely going to be charged under U.S. law for a crime that they did not "directly" commit.

While we would prefer to not see you go, we understand and respect your beliefs and principals. With respect to other forums, unfortunately none come to mind!

If you choose to leave Android Forums and cancel your account here, please PM our forum administrator Phases and let him know. That way he can lock your account or, at your specific request, delete it.

 

[dautley]

Does anybody have any suggestions of forums that care more about their members than their corporate overlords?($) This really makes me question whether I want to be here anymore. (and I don't even use this feature, it's just the principal of it) Thanks for any suggestions.

Gamash,
If your not supporting this forum with premium membership (money out of your pocket) what would be the harm in staying? It's free and you could keep your account and just not visit as often if you prefer not to, but there are still tons of useful information as well as a enthusiastic Android user base here on AF that is always full of good info and users willing to help out within the guidelines and the forum rules should you ever wish to contribute or have a question in the future.
That said, XDA is another great android resource, I often use AF and XDA to compliment each other.
I hope you'll consider sticking around keeping in mind that people who own and run web sites have to make a living off of them to!!

 

[killer101]

Rooting can't be against your ToS. For one, the courts have found that to be unconscionable. For two, if there must be a two, rooting is between you and your phone, it doesn't affect anything concerning honesty of paying for services.


We may terminate or suspend your Service at any time and for any reason without liability. If you breach any portion of this Agreement (including failing to pay your bill in full on time), we may suspend, terminate or restrict your Service. We can, without notice, restrict, suspend or end your Service or any agreement with you at any time for any reason, including, but not limited to: (1) if you: ... (d) tampering with or modifying your wireless device; ... (l) modify a wireless device from its manufacturer specifications; ... or (2) if you, any user of your wireless device or any account manager on your account: ... (d) modify your wireless device from its manufacturer's specifications;...


Someone offers you a service and you accept. You take more and don't pay for it...


i pay for unlimited service and unlimited bandwidth whether i use 1gb on my phone or 1 KB it shouldn't matter if i use it on my laptop via tether instead because I'm paying for that data. That is like if ISPs didn't let u hook up your friends computer to your router because that is not your computer so u cant use that data and bandwidth that I'm paying for.

p.S sorry i don't know how to use the quoting system.

Everyone's asking us questions and I love that - personally, I love to chat and I don't see anything wrong with questions.

So, let me ask one.

If you can't tether according to the contract you signed with your carrier, what would you like us to do about it?

i never asked u guys to do anything AF the way it was before was the best friendly members and staff and even friendly and very reasonable mods, but this new rule is a little absurd if some of the mods should agree with me here im paying for that "unlimited data" my data not theirs at this point, and we are not even allowed to suggest tethering apps that's in a way like blocking free speech how about a revision to the rule that allows use to say x tethering app works but allow the other user to determine how to make it work some apps require very specific settings to make it work,

EarlyMon, I 100% agree with you, it's Rob's site and he is the owner and is 100% entitled to run it as he sees fit and Phases, mods and us users have to fall into line. That's just how it is.
I mean no disrespect to Rob or anyone else when I say this, but when I read "It's a matter of conscience by the site owner" then look at the top of the page and see those Verizon advertizing banners, I just can't help but wonder if the focus of what AF has always been about (it's users) is shifting just a bit.
Again this is not meant to question anyone's authority or intentions. Just pointing something out I'm sure others have noticed but may have not commented on for obvious reasons.
After saying that I will also say that I have and will continue to contribute to AF as a premium user because I find it a very useful resource.

i completely agree here the attention is shifting from the users to money here. This site gets money from advertising what the guy does with the money he gets is none of my concern but he should not use this to throw his weight around the very same thing big corporations are doing. He is also getting money from the premium users, granted i' am not one but still another from of supporting this forum. I would like to point out that this community is very willing to support AF through donations. Now why doesn't the site owner allow the users to vote on the rules or allow a system that allows us to fight back some the rules or something and why has he not even show up to talk to us.

 

[Slug]

There still appears to be some confusion here. Allow me to spell it out.

im paying for that "unlimited data" my data not theirs at this point

You pay for unlimited data to be used on your smartphone. Not hooked up to laptops, PCs or anything else.

we are not even allowed to suggest tethering apps that's in a way like blocking free speech

This is a privately-owned site, and as such the owner has every right to decide what is or isn't allowed.

This site gets money from advertising what the guy does with the money he gets is none of my concern but he should not use this to throw his weight around the very same thing big corporations are doing.

I'm confused. Money has never been used a a reason or an excuse for this policy, so who exactly is throwing whose weight around?

Now why doesn't the site owner allow the users to vote on the rules or allow a system that allows us to fight back some the rules or something and why has he not even show up to talk to us.

This is a privately-owned web site, part of somebody's business and livelihood, not a democracy.

p.s. Use the "Quote" button under the post you're replying to in order to include it in your response. Multiple posts can be quoted using the "+" button under each of them and then using "Quote".

 

[Phases]

Wow guys. Just skimmed and this is a short response but:

- It has nothing to do with money. If anything he's losing money because of this. Come on now.. it really shocks me to see people assume that has anything to do with it. But, then again, that's usually the scapegoat when a policy is being challenged.

- It isn't due to breaking the TOS. It is because of abuse of someone else's network - not risking your own devices. Which is why rooting is okay but tethering against TOS is not. It's one thing to put your own device and self (your contract anyway) at risk with the company, it's another to shift the issue off your device and onto their infrastructure.

- This isn't a new rule. This has been the stance here for quite a while now. It's just now that everyone is really becoming aware.

I'm really confused as to why this is such a hard thing to swallow. Why do I continually have to explain why this isn't the same thing as rooting your device and why they have to be treated differently?

At any rate - this wasn't my choice, or the staff's choice. Unfortunately though, it's left to us to enforce and explain it.

I will, again, try to talk to Rob about it.

 

[killer101]

Is Tethering Stealing Bandwidth? | Techdirt

ty for everything but i think imma go to another forums but here is some food for thought so to say, found it on another thread.

 

[cmybliss]

While I personally believe tethering is not theft, and think it's silly of the wireless providers to charge extra for the service, I don't tether against my ToS. If I'm going on a trip and need the service, I sign up, then cancel when I get back home. I don't want to give Big Red an excuse to ax my unlimited data.

If Rob feels that it is unethical for AF to discuss how to get a service your carrier requires you to pay for, then that is his right. We may not agree, but we should abide by his decision.

With the internet under attack by our government, it's up to us as a community to act responsibly and give them no more fuel for their fire. Discussing what some call theft of service is not responsible behavior in my opinion.

 

[OfTheDamned]

I won't speak for the rest of the staff here on Android Forums or Phandroid, but I will say this for myself.

I'm personally quite offended by some of the accusations people are making about this rule. People are implying that we are going out of our way to lie to them about this policy and that this is somehow all about money. During my time as a staff member on this forum I have been insulted and called plenty of names while enforcing the rules of this site, but I have never once been offended by any of it. I let just about anything said towards me roll of my back. This is the first time I can actually say that I am deeply hurt by someone's comment. I'm willing to tolerate the things that have been said to me and some of the things I have seen said to other members of the staff here, but I won't tolerate any of that being done to one of our members and I won't tolerate someone calling me or another staff member a liar.

The staff on this forum spend countless hours trying to make sure that this is the best forum on the net. We all give freely of our time to help members and spend an obscene amount of time trying to make sure that people are treated the way everyone should be, with kindness and respect. The implication that any rule or guideline on this forum has been put in place to line someone's pockets is just preposterous and it is downright rude for anyone to say so. If this was all about money do you really think any of us would be spending time trying to explain it over and over again? On most forums I've ever been to the staff, Admin or Owner would just say, "This is the way it is and if you don't like it you can go suck an egg.", but that isn't being done here. On other forums they would just delete the discussions and ban people who argued about it, but again that isn't being done. Here, the discussion is simply moved to a place were anyone can talk about it. Where anyone can voice their opinion on the matter and the only thing that is required is for people to adhere to the sites rules during that discussion.

If anyone really believes that a rule like this was set in place simply for someone to make money then I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry because you have obviously not understood what this forum is about and you have not realized how different things are around here. I feel sorry for you because the rules of this site and the zero tolerance policy were set in place by people looking to make this a safe and comfortable place for anyone to seek help and/or guidance when using a piece of technology. I feel sorry for those that chose to leave because you won't find another forum like this anywhere on the web and you will have no one to blame other than yourself.

Personally I commend Rob for having principles and sticking by them. Even when others have disagreed with him about this, he continues to be adamant about is personal belief in what is right and wrong and there aren't too many people out there that do that these days.

 

[Gmash]

Gamash,
If your not supporting this forum with premium membership (money out of your pocket) what would be the harm in staying? It's free and you could keep your account and just not visit as often if you prefer not to, but there are still tons of useful information as well as a enthusiastic Android user base here on AF that is always full of good info and users willing to help out within the guidelines and the forum rules should you ever wish to contribute or have a question in the future.
That said, XDA is another great android resource, I often use AF and XDA to compliment each other.
I hope you'll consider sticking around keeping in mind that people who own and run web sites have to make a living off of them to!!

Well, I'm not going to delete my account. I don't feel like starting over at a new forum, and I like the people here. I know the mods and guides are just doing their jobs, and that many of them may not even agree with this policy personally. I also realize we live in a "cover your ass" society thanks to all the lawyers. What really makes me angry is seeing how these huge corporations are becoming more and more evil, constantly looking for more ways to squeeze a few more bucks out of their customers in order to pad their multi billion dollar bottom lines. The last thing I'm going to say on the subject is, I can see the obvious potential for abuse if somebody has unlimited data and is using it as their main internet connection to stream movies, etc., but if you are paying for 1,2 or 5GB, it's not effecting the network if you are just using the amount of data you have paid for. Seeing that Sprint is the only carrier that still has unlimited data, it seems obvious that charging these fees is just a blatant money grab by the likes of Verizon. This is just my opinion, I realize this is a privately owned website and the owner can make whatever rules he wants.

 

[9to5cynic]

Personally I commend Rob for having principles and sticking by them. Even when others have disagreed with him about this, he continues to be adamant about is personal belief in what is right and wrong and there aren't too many people out there that do that these days.

Whole post was well said, but this is the best part for me.

When this thread moved from the evo forum I was a bit upset given, at that time I thought all of our discussion was deleted, of course it wasn't and it was just moved to a place where it is more accessible to everyone.... And I do have to agree with you that this is one of the only forums I've been to where you can have an open discussion with mods...

I definitely don't think this is about money.

 

[dautley]

I'll tell y'all. It seems to me that somebody needs to stick a fork in this thread, about all that can be said has been said and it looks done.

 

[Slug]

Your opinion has been noted. Until the forum staff decide otherwise however, it will remain open.

 

[dautley]

Your opinion has been noted. Until the forum staff decide otherwise however, it will remain open.

As always Slug I am grateful when my opinion is noted by the staff (except when it gets me in trouble of course)

On a serious note, I would like to apologize to anyone I may have offended in this thread. I do enjoy AF a lot and tend to voice my concerns when I see issues that may effect it. Sometimes the mod's agree with me and sometimes they don't, but I never intentionally make comments that are intended to mislead, or be hurtful to anyone.