Help Li-Ion Battery Charging Discussion

[Halfbaked]

After you get your new EVO 3D, take it home and charge the phone with it completely powered down. Charge for about 8-10 hours. This is called initializing the battery. The led light will turn green rather quickly but the battery wont be fully charged. Its because lithium ion batteries lie during their first charge. Let the battery keep charging for 8-10 hours.

Lithium ion batteries can remember their maximum charge capacity by initializing the battery. Hence people have battery life problems because they dont do this. And battery manufacturers don't initialize the batteries at the plant anymore. This is why you don't receive a phone with a fully charged battery.

 

[shadders139]

i read somewhere that this needed to be done for old batteries, but you don't need to do it for modern batteries anymore?

do we really have to charge the phone for 10 hours before we can switch it on!? the first thing you want to do as soon as you get a new phone is play around with it!

 

[freeza]

definitely not going to let my phone sit, off, charging for eight hours to 'initialize' the battery. that is false information

 

[Halfbaked]

Guys you can do what you want with your phones. Lithium ion batteries are considered "smart batteries" because they can remember their maximum charging capacity of which the user sets when you first charge the battery. I guess Seidio is dumb for sending out those instructions with all of their lithium ion batteries, especially for those rated at 1750 mah and the EVO 3D sports a 1730 mah battery.

The information is here for people who want to do this with their phone. This thread isn't for people looking to argue over a proven method.

I will still have my EVO to play with while my 3D charges. Be at the Sprint Store at 8am and my 3D will be fully charged at 6pm.

 

[RedWingsFan]

My first 8 hour charge will come the first night it comes and I'm sleeping. If I'm at the office e when it arrives, I'll put it on the charger. But no way is the first 8 hours with a new phone going to be spent on a charger with the power off

 

[NeoteriX]

After you get your new EVO 3D, take it home and charge the phone with it completely powered down. Charge for about 8-10 hours. This is called initializing the battery. The led light will turn green rather quickly but the battery wont be fully charged. Its because lithium ion batteries lie during their first charge. Let the battery keep charging for 8-10 hours.

Lithium ion batteries can remember their maximum charge capacity by initializing the battery. Hence people have battery life problems because they dont do this. And battery manufacturers don't initialize the batteries at the plant anymore. This is why you don't receive a phone with a fully charged battery.

Hey buddy, I respect that you're trying to help people, but I don't think this information is accurate, so citing some established sources that back this information up here would be useful.

 

[alcohol]

Why does it have to be completely powered down to charge?

 

[themuffinman75]

Lets be honest, whether the advice given is accurate or not, who in their right mind gonna come home and just let their 3vo charge? I will end just raping the hell out of the battery because there is no way my 3vo will be leaving my hands the first time I bring it home.

 

[ArmageddonX]

I could leave mine plugged in for an extended period of time after I get it home... but there is no way in heck I could leave it turned off & not be playing with or setting it up the want I want it LOL...

 

[Halfbaked]

I think I already said Seidio ships this information out with all of their lithium ion batteries. Comes on a huge orange/redish instruction card. I think they are an extremely credible source on how to charge a cell phone battery they sell.

. Basically there's a sensor in your phone that is used by your phone to tell how full/empty the battery is.

This sensor doesn't actually know how full your battery is, all it knows is how much power is coming from your battery at the time. The problem it has is that all batteries are slightly different, and their capacity goes down over time and usage (a three year old battery will not be able to hold as much charge as a brand new battery).

Your phone keeps a record of the maximum power it's ever had from the battery, as well as knowing the minimum power that it can safely work with before it has to turn itself off. It uses the difference between those two numbers, and the current power at any time to calculate how much percentage of your battery you have left at that time. So with a new battery, the phone might be telling you that the battery is fully charged because it's charged to the highest level the phone's ever seen, but if you leave it charging a bit longer then it might charge more, and then the phone can recalibrate itself and use this new value as the most it's ever seen.

You should only need to do this "over-charging" with a brand new phone/battery, after that the phone know the maximum values, and can more accurately tell you when it's full.

 

[RedWingsFan]

"Hey guys I'm telling you this is a proven method, not citing a legit source, and telling you this thread is not for arguments. This thread is for you to agree with me, thank me, or go away because I have noting to back up my claim

 

[ArmageddonX]

Seido says:

In order to obtain the full capacity of your Seidio battery, we highly recommend that you leave the battery/your phone on the charger for an additional 2-3 hours after the charging indicator turns green or the battery status shows full.

Seido Online - Innocell 3500mAh Extended Life Battery
Basically on all their batteries. But that's all they say on their website.

Here is a quote from a thread on a different forum:

The fully charge rule only applies to Nickel Cadmium Batteries. Cell phones use Lithium Ion or Nickel Metal Hydride batteries that do not have a memory affect.

Proper way to initially charge your new cell phone [Archive] - SprintUsers.com

Finally, here is another Website:
How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries: Battery University

A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when applying unscheduled charges.

That website says here:
How to Prime Batteries: Battery University

Lithium-ion is a very clean system and does not need formatting when new, nor does it require the level of maintenance that nickel-based batteries do. The first charge is no different than the fifth or the 50th. Formatting makes little difference because the maximum capacity is available right from the beginning. Nor does a full discharge improve the capacity once faded. In most cases, a low capacity signals the end of life. A discharge/charge may be beneficial for calibrating a “smart” battery, but this service only addresses the digital part of the pack and does nothing to improve the electrochemical battery. Instructions to charge a new battery for eight hours are seen as “old school” from the nickel battery days.

 

[Halfbaked]

How to Make Your Cell Phone Battery Last Longer - wikiHow
Initialize a new battery. New batteries should be fully charged before their first use to obtain maximum capacity. Nickel-based batteries should be charged for 16 hours initially and run through 2-4 full charge/full discharge cycles, while lithium ion batteries should be charged for about 5-6 hours. Ignore the phone telling you that the battery is full—this is normal but is not accurate if the battery is not initialized. #DO NOT fully discharge a lithium-ion battery! Unlike Ni-Cd batteries, lithium-ion batteries' life is shortened every time you fully discharge them. Instead, charge them when the battery meter shows one bar left. Lithium-ion batteries, like most rechargeable batteries, have a set number of charges in them.

 

[yourfriendmat]

How to Make Your Cell Phone Battery Last Longer - wikiHow
Initialize a new battery. New batteries should be fully charged before their first use to obtain maximum capacity. Nickel-based batteries should be charged for 16 hours initially and run through 2-4 full charge/full discharge cycles, while lithium ion batteries should be charged for about 5-6 hours. Ignore the phone telling you that the battery is full

 

[novox77]

How to Make Your Cell Phone Battery Last Longer - wikiHow
Initialize a new battery. New batteries should be fully charged before their first use to obtain maximum capacity. Nickel-based batteries should be charged for 16 hours initially and run through 2-4 full charge/full discharge cycles, while lithium ion batteries should be charged for about 5-6 hours. Ignore the phone telling you that the battery is full

 

[Halfbaked]

It's not necessary to do this on first charge. People who stop charging the battery when the phone reports 100% are not permanantly dooming themselves to crappier battery life. In fact, I am positive that with Android phones, the charge circuit is completely closed when the device thinks the battery is fully charged. Even if the device is completely powered off. So leaving it in the charger isn't doing squat.

But it is true that you don't get the full range of the battery until after a few charges. After a week or so of normal charging, the battery will automatically be fully initialized. There is no "memory" with Li-Ion. Just because you don't fully charge it doesn't mean it remembers that fake ceiling for the next charge.

Your phone keeps a record of the maximum power it's ever had from the battery, as well as knowing the minimum power that it can safely work with before it has to turn itself off. It uses the difference between those two numbers, and the current power at any time to calculate how much percentage of your battery you have left at that time. So with a new battery, the phone might be telling you that the battery is fully charged because it's charged to the highest levelthephone's ever seen, but if you leave it charging a bitlongerthen it might charge more, and then the phone can recalibrate itself and use this new value as the most it's ever seen.

 

[ArmageddonX]

Ok, but even if we consider that reasoning to be true then removing the battery and re-inserting the same battery would make the phone recalibrate itself anyway. On a chemical level the lithium ion battery doesn't have a memory effect like NiCd battery and the phone has no way to tell which battery you have in the phone.

 

[yourfriendmat]

Your phone keeps a record of the maximum power it's ever had from the battery, as well as knowing the minimum power that it can safely work with before it has to turn itself off. It uses the difference between those two numbers, and the current power at any time to calculate how much percentage of your battery you have left at that time. So with a new battery, the phone might be telling you that the battery is fully charged because it's charged to the highest levelthephone's ever seen, but if you leave it charging a bitlongerthen it might charge more, and then the phone can recalibrate itself and use this new value as the most it's ever seen.

This may or may not be true, but it still has nothing to do with leaving your phone off for 8 hours while it charges to max capacity. If anything, I'd think you would want it left on since the phone needs to monitor the state of the battery to know the new 100% level (according to your account of how the battery should work). Also, the battery's lowest level needs to be known without ever observing it since this type of battery will not accept a charge if it is discharged all the way (hence your phone shutting off when the battery is too low).

Anyway, my intuition tells me the phone gets info from the battery (AFAIK, the battery has a little computer in it) about its capacity and then the voltage/current drop experienced can tell the phone what state the battery is in. I honestly have very little experience with the meter mechanism, but it can't be much harder than reading the voltage and/or current before and after passing through a known resistance (V = IR from your physics/electrical engineering classes). This leads me to believe the phone wouldn't have to base its battery capacity information solely on what is has seen the battery do (but that's not to say it isn't a factor).

I'd like to add that the "initializing" process you use will definitely charge the battery fully and will have no negative impact (other than not being able to use your phone lol), but it isn't necessary for obtaining optimal battery life.

 

[NeoteriX]

In fact, I am positive that with Android phones, the charge circuit is completely closed when the device thinks the battery is fully charged. Even if the device is completely powered off. So leaving it in the charger isn't doing squat.

Yeah, I proved it with a Kill-A-Watt back in the Evo 4G days. Once the battery hits 100%, the A/C adapter draws no current whatsoever, and then resumes drawing current at some unknown battery percentage (95% maybe?). I videotaped it, but it's long and boring so I never uploaded it to youtube but it was kinda fun coming up with a scheme that would draw the most phone juice possible (max screen brightness, 4G radio on, bluetooth speakers connected streaming music, wifi on but not connected, and playing an HD video, all at the same time).

 

[novox77]

Your phone keeps a record of the maximum power it's ever had from the battery, as well as knowing the minimum power that it can safely work with before it has to turn itself off. It uses the difference between those two numbers, and the current power at any time to calculate how much percentage of your battery you have left at that time. So with a new battery, the phone might be telling you that the battery is fully charged because it's charged to the highest levelthephone's ever seen, but if you leave it charging a bitlongerthen it might charge more, and then the phone can recalibrate itself and use this new value as the most it's ever seen.

This is completely false. If I were to put a new but barely charged battery in the phone, and I charge it for 1 minute, the phone is not going to be stupid and "remember" that the max this battery can charge for is at that low level.

Li-Ion charging is controlled by voltage. There's a max voltage recommended for Li-Ion around 4.3V. Most chargers are programmed to stop short of that (4.2V or 4.1V). Theoretically, the more voltage you apply, the more the battery will charge, but this raises the temp significantly, and at a certain point, the battery chemistry changes and plating occurs. Now you're permanently damaging the battery.

A battery's max capacity is therefore determined by how much charge it can hold when pushed at 4.1V or 4.2V. In a new battery, there is some resistance to charge, which means the battery won't charge as much at these voltages. But, through normal use and normal charging, the resistance will go away, and the battery will charge to its true potential. It will reach this on its own. No need to apply any special initialization procedures.

 

[Vihzel]

I think we can safely say that there is no prep to lithium ion batteries?

 

[Steven58]

Cool it down, folks and stay on topic please.

 

[jerofld]

I think it completely depends on model. I don't know how HTC does it (never owned an HTC before), but Moto phones have "battery stats" files. Maybe it's an overall Android thing. Again, I don't know. I've never messed with AOSP or anything.

However, my DX has a battery statistics file. It's main objective is to increase the accuracy of the phone's battery. It runs off of the highest max charge, lowest discharge before the phone shut off principle. And we have to "recalibrate" it whenever we do major upgrades to the ROM. We recalibrate it by deleting the stats file and doing a discharge/charge cycle from 100% to 5% back to 100% while off. If this file is not calibrated, battery reporting accuracy goes in the toilet. And seeing how Android will shut down the phone if it reaches that certain percent (5% for the DX), even if the battery really has 30% left, it works like it's dead.

But the difference to know here is that it's the OS that is controlling it. So if Android thinks that the battery is 100%, it shuts down the charging circuit, period. Even if you turn off the phone and hook up the charger. Android boots up a low-level version of itself to facilitate the charging. Don't believe me? Go to the DX forums and look at threads where people say they were installing ROMs, screwed up, tried to SBF (flash it back to stock), but couldn't because their battery was too low/dead. Then they tried to charge it, and it doesn't charge, even when powered down. Because the OS is corrupt.

So, unless HTC has something hard-coded into their phones to allow them to charge without any software, leaving the phone off and charging it beyond the point where Android says it's enough is shenanigans. Maybe Seido does put those cards with their batteries. Personally, I think it's a CYA maneuver that is left over from the old days where it was applicable.

Edit: Another thing. Yes, fully discharging a Li-Ion battery is bad. But the detail to make is that it literally means a 100% discharge. Cell phones do not allow that.

 

[yourfriendmat]

Novox is awesome. This can be deleted.

 

[novox77]

But the difference to know here is that it's the OS that is controlling it. So if Android thinks that the battery is 100%, it shuts down the charging circuit, period. Even if you turn off the phone and hook up the charger. Android boots up a low-level version of itself to facilitate the charging. Don't believe me? Go to the DX forums and look at threads where people say they were installing ROMs, screwed up, tried to SBF (flash it back to stock), but couldn't because their battery was too low/dead. Then they tried to charge it, and it doesn't charge, even when powered down. Because the OS is corrupt.

I'm not convinced there's a low-level mode for Android. When you shut down the phone, Android (and more importantly, Linux) shuts down. What controls the charging at that point is in the phone's hardware, not the firmware. That's not to say that the battery stats info is not accessible directly by the phone's hardware. But it's not Android doing any analysis at that point. Phone charges fine powered off or in HBOOT or recovery. Linux starts loading at the time you see the splash screen. Android starts loading when you see the bootanimation.zip.

I can't explain the behavior you describe on behalf of some DX users, and I don't doubt the issue is real. I'm just saying I'm not convinced the OS is responsible for the inability to charge. Correlation does not imply causation.