Mosque Being Built 2 Blocks Away From Ground Zero... What Do You Think?

[ZDroid1]

I agree with Obama in that I question the wisdom of their decision. To me it seems like a challenge than anything else. Terrorists everywhere will be citing Allah's support for them since he allowed this building to exist on the ruins of the infidels' buildings.

I would have expected moderate Muslims to think, "Our intentions are good, but we will not give the extremists a reason to rejoice, or our sympathizers a reason to question us. We will build it elsewhere."

I am CERTAIN that even some of those involved in this project are secretly extremists themselves.

 

[A.Nonymous]

"i think anyone who dissagrees with me is a shallow, racist narrowminded bastard. if you dont think the same way i do you are obviously a lowlife piece of scum fueled only by hate and bigotry." ~ pro mosque argument.

no one has ever said that they dont have the right to build it there, the question is whether or not it would be prudent. the comparison between tiller and the trade center is not even close. george tiller =/= 3000+ people. bullets from a gun =/= large scale devastation.

i personally don't care one way or another, but the fact that people who are "for" the mosque without fail resort to ad-hominim attacks of racism, bigotry and xenophobia leads me to believe that they dont have much going for them.

Give me one reason not to build the mosque that doesn't revolve around bigotry.

The guy heading up the mosque is a moderate, Sunni Muslim who has openly condemned terrorism. Muslims, legally, have as much a right to worship in this country as anyone else. They own the land. Why would anyone oppose this?

Let's say the tables were flipped. Let's say the 9/11 hijackers were Christians who felt they were fighting in God's name by crashing the planes. Would you oppose a church 3 blocks away?

 

[ionekoa]

Give me one reason not to build the mosque that doesn't revolve around bigotry.

The guy heading up the mosque is a moderate, Sunni Muslim who has openly condemned terrorism. Muslims, legally, have as much a right to worship in this country as anyone else. They own the land. Why would anyone oppose this?

Let's say the tables were flipped. Let's say the 9/11 hijackers were Christians who felt they were fighting in God's name by crashing the planes. Would you oppose a church 3 blocks away?

i don't oppose anything. i honestly don't care. but to answer the question you SHOULD be asking, i would question the wisdom of it, yes. it's a hurtful reminder to a lot of people. bigotry has nothing to do with it. my reasoning is the same as the "sexual harrassment training" virtually everyone recieves at work. that is, "intent means nothing, and it's the interpretation of the 'victim' that counts". in this case you can attack, slander and berate thousands of new-yorkers who are hurting and having a visceral reaction all you want. it doesnt change how they feel(well, actually it may compound what they percieve as an insult), and it isnt going to be helpful to the situation.

 

[A.Nonymous]

i don't oppose anything. i honestly don't care. but to answer the question you SHOULD be asking, i would question the wisdom of it, yes. it's a hurtful reminder to a lot of people. bigotry has nothing to do with it. my reasoning is the same as the "sexual harrassment training" virtually everyone recieves at work. that is, "intent means nothing, and it's the interpretation of the 'victim' that counts". in this case you can attack, slander and berate thousands of new-yorkers who are hurting and having a visceral reaction all you want. it doesnt change how they feel(well, actually it may compound what they percieve as an insult), and it isnt going to be helpful to the situation.

Dr. Tiller was killed by a Christian who thought he was doing God's duty. Would building a church down the street from his family's house be tasteless to his family? People blame all Muslims for what happened on 9/11. How does that not boil down to bigotry?

 

[ionekoa]

Dr. Tiller was killed by a Christian who thought he was doing God's duty. Would building a church down the street from his family's house be tasteless to his family? People blame all Muslims for what happened on 9/11. How does that not boil down to bigotry?

not even the same thing at all. wow, red herring fishing expidition.

1) tiller was killed in church while attending a worship service. so, since we can presume that tiller and his family are/were christian the entire comparison falls apart here.

2) there are mosques in new york. if it were about bigotry then people would be crying out to have them all removed. in fact, many people have said build the mosque, just build it elsewhere.

3) it's obvious from your response(going back to arguments that have alrady been refuted and resorting to name calling ie insisting that only bigotry, and not genuine hurt and pain could be the reason people oppose it) that you are only interested in winning an argument(which im sure in your mind you have, congradulations, however in the real world you have persuaded no one, and made no valid arguments, in fact you have moved backwards) so there is no use engaging you as you are simply attempting to denegrate those who arent holding the same position you are.

 

[alex51]

I understand the freedoms our country offers and what it takes to preserve our way of life. What I don't understand is how did it become an issue.Since we live in a capitalistic society it boils down to 1st come 1st served if they have the $ which the owner/s are satisfied with and the appropriate predetermined rules are followed according to that city etc..
That said, I think it's an ill conceived idea of anyone to make such a request considering the previous circumstances.It seems poor judgement and/or( a pre planned)idea to create havoc & turmoil,especially for those who've lost loved one's so close to the 911 site.
I don't think I will allow people like that to further divide us,faith and common sense will strengthen us and lead us on the right path,reguardless weather a mosque is built there or not.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Again, will someone please tell me how this is a bad or tasteless idea. I don't get it. In my mind blaming all Muslims for 9/11 just makes no sense to me. The mosque being built is just one part of a community center. The guy heading it up is not a radical, extremist. In fact, he's come out against extremism and against terrorism. You would think this would be the type of Muslim you'd want to encourage in this country. Apparently not. We are talking about denying people their Constitutional rights just on the grounds that they happen to practice the same religion the hijackers practiced. Please defend the fact that they're talking about denying American citizens their Constitutional right to Freedom of Worship. On what grounds are you going to deny that right?

 

[Storm613]

Again, will someone please tell me how this is a bad or tasteless idea. I don't get it. In my mind blaming all Muslims for 9/11 just makes no sense to me. The mosque being built is just one part of a community center. The guy heading it up is not a radical, extremist. In fact, he's come out against extremism and against terrorism. You would think this would be the type of Muslim you'd want to encourage in this country. Apparently not. We are talking about denying people their Constitutional rights just on the grounds that they happen to practice the same religion the hijackers practiced. Please defend the fact that they're talking about denying American citizens their Constitutional right to Freedom of Worship. On what grounds are you going to deny that right?

From what I see, there are two reasons why people don't want the Mosque to be built.

1. Undereducated racist bigots hate all muslims.

2. Think about what might happen after it is built: The protests, the possibility of being attacked, does it look like a "rub it in your face" kind of thing? A hurtful reminder? Some people just think it might not be in the Muslim's best interest to build the mosque in that specific location, and should choose another.

 

[ionekoa]

From what I see, there are two reasons why people don't want the Mosque to be built.

1. Undereducated racist bigots hate all muslims.

2. Think about what might happen after it is built: The protests, the possibility of being attacked, does it look like a "rub it in your face" kind of thing? A hurtful reminder? Some people just think it might not be in the Muslim's best interest to build the mosque in that specific location, and should choose another.

sadly, people have latched on to 1) and cant seem to comprehend 2), or lacking the mental capacity to coherently articulate an effective counter argument to 2) they seek to ridicule their opponents into submission. this is enough for me not to side with them, though i have no opinion personally on the matter. i don't oppose the mosque, per se, but i do oppose the idiots who, because they can't comprehend the situation of those who were there during the attacks and have lived with the aftermath every day since, resort to atttacking and insulting those people.

 

[Crude]

ok, from here on out if you incorrectly use the word racist or bigot you're on my ignor list. You used both incorrectly here.

 

[ionekoa]

ok, from here on out if you incorrectly use the word racist or bigot you're on my ignor list. You used both incorrectly here.

who?

 

[hakr100]

From what I see, there are two reasons why people don't want the Mosque to be built.

1. Undereducated racist bigots hate all muslims.

2. Think about what might happen after it is built: The protests, the possibility of being attacked, does it look like a "rub it in your face" kind of thing? A hurtful reminder? Some people just think it might not be in the Muslim's best interest to build the mosque in that specific location, and should choose another.

1. There's no shortage of "undereducated racist bigots" in this country, and their emotions are easily aroused by the demagogues on the far right...in this case, Gingrich, Palin, et al.

2. Protests are part of America. If we're afraid to do X, Y, or Z because of the fear of protests, then the terrorists have won.

3, Organized religion - virtually all organized religion - is built upon fear, superstition, and ignorance, and perhaps some day we'll move away from the harm it does and leave the dark ages behind.

 

[mpw]

.

 

[turbosol16]

To me its not a big deal. However, to not allow them to build it would be a violation of the constitution.

Politicians only use the constitution to get what they want, they forget about it when they can't bend it to fit their agenda.

 

[A.Nonymous]

From what I see, there are two reasons why people don't want the Mosque to be built.

1. Undereducated racist bigots hate all muslims.

2. Think about what might happen after it is built: The protests, the possibility of being attacked, does it look like a "rub it in your face" kind of thing? A hurtful reminder? Some people just think it might not be in the Muslim's best interest to build the mosque in that specific location, and should choose another.

Point 1 is obvious. There is way too much bigotry in this country. It never changes, it just changes who happens to be hated. It may be the Irish, the blacks, the Jews, the Japanese, and now apparently it's the Muslims turn. Drives me insane, but it's been that way in this country for hundreds of years.

Point 2 is interesting. To not build something because someone might (or probably will) protest it is not a good reason. So the ignorant bigots from Point 1 will protest, big deal. We should let them win then? There's a mosque in Tennessee that's also being protested right now. Why? Because it's a mosque. It's idiotic. How is it a "rub it in your face" thing? It only is if you believe that all Muslims are responsible for 9/11. It's not like they're building a monument to the 9/11 terrorists.

 

[krouget]

People have too much time on their hands. They have to fill this void by lashing out at groups of people. It's the Muslim's turn right now. Fortunately, this group of "outraged and insulted" people are a very small percentage. Unfortunately, they are really friggin loud, making it appear that they are the majority.

Eventually, they will run out of steam and move on to the next event that is a crime against honest Americans, or whatever their mantra is. If we ignore it, and stop posting facebook crap about nonissues, it will go away sooner.

I'm pleasantly surprised that in the 2nd post of a topic like this, that my opinions have been completely summed up, no more and no less. I'm in total agreement, and honestly do feel some people need to reevaluate their perspective and priorities when they make it a point to be personally offended by non-issues like this.

There is just way more to life than this weekly false-outrage constantly being fueled. The degradation of society doesn't come from a mosque being built in NY, but in our constant inability to better choose which battles we dedicate our attention, time, and energy to.

 

[Slug]

Okay, a few pointers are in order to keep this discussion on-track and open:

1. If I read so much as a hint of "hate speech" the poster will be on a 7-day ban at best.

2. Usual forum rules apply e.g be civil

2. The OP was quite specific with the topic, so please stick to it.

4. Leave party political propaganda at the door. See 3.

Thanks for your co-operation.

 

[imtoomuch]

I don't believe Islam or Christianity are religions of peace. In looking over their histories, I don't see much difference between the two in re: murders, wars, and other types of violence. I also don't see much difference between the many Christians who want to turn the United States into a theocracy and the Taliban.

I don't know whether there is or is not a creator. If there is, I cannot imagine he/she having anything to do with most of the major religions.

There's a difference. This country was founded on Christianity - no matter what lie about freedom of religion that we are taught in school. If it was not founded on Christianity why do we swear on the Bible in courts? That's just one example of the tight integration.

Anyway, when is the last time Christians killed thousands of our own citizens in our own country?

Sure they may be extremist Muslims that had a part in 9/11, but what kind of scum is trying to put a mosque there just to start trouble and get publicity like this? Their intentions surely are not innocent. Even Obama, a Muslim himself, seems to realize this.

 

[byteware]

"the other is specifically to inflict pain on survivors."

That's a strong statement. Any objective proof to back it up?

Relatively simple logic.

They either knew or should have known the effect it would have.

They know now the effect it WILL have.

They have other choices to build their mosque.

They are choosing to build their mosque there knowing the effect it WILL have.

Yes muslims did carry out the attacks on 9/11. But that was a small group, it doesn't mean that all muslims are bad.

Muslim extremists aren't exactly a "small group". Yes, only 19 of them were murderers that day, but that doesn't mean it's only a small group.

I'm not going to paint the entire group with a terrorist brush, but it is a REAL problem within the Islamic religion.

I think it's small minded, racist people that think it's a bad idea.

I can assure you that I am neither, but I think it is a bad idea.

If you say that the mosque should not be built, what you are saying is Muslim = terrorist.

That's a false argument meant to paint those who disagree with you in a bad light.

You have prominent religious leaders in the Muslim world advocating for Jihad against the US. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but enough are that those who aren't should have compassion on the victims of those who are.

What I don't understand are the people saying that it is "morally wrong" to build that Mosque.

I don't necessarily believe it's morally wrong. I think it's intentionally inflicting emotional harm on survivors of 9/11. I don't think that's right either.

So if the biker was a Christian, it would be bad for a group of Christians completely unrelated to said Christian biker to build a Church down the road?

If he were of a sect that had many prominent advocates for them raping and killing... and the group down the street was a member of that sect, but didn't agree... I think they should have compassion on the victims.

Again, will someone please tell me how this is a bad or tasteless idea. I don't get it.

Let me present you with an analogy. A unit in the US military has gone rogue. It's commander is telling his subordinates publicly that it is their duty to rape women.

Do you think that building a military base at the site of their atrocities is a good idea?

No. The same is true here. It doesn't matter that they weren't involved, and aren't terrorists.



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Hey slug....1224.

 

[A.Nonymous]

3, Organized religion - virtually all organized religion - is built upon fear, superstition, and ignorance, and perhaps some day we'll move away from the harm it does and leave the dark ages behind.

I have to take great offense at this. Organized religion is certainly not perfect. Nothing on this planet is. But the fact that you're apparently just ignoring all of the good organized religion does is just wrong. There are homeless shelter's and soup kitchens across the States who are feeding the homeless and the needy because they feel their religion teaches them to do so. There are programs that take care of the elderly, house orphans, shelter battered women, etc.... that are all run by religious organizations. None of these organizations would even exist if the people running them didn't feel like their religion told them to do this. At the very least, they would likely exist in lesser numbers.

This is not to mention those people who find that their religion gives them guidance or comfort or a moral compass or whatever. If you don't get that out of religion, that's fine. But it's offensive to say that religion is something from the dark ages and does more harm than good.

There's a difference. This country was founded on Christianity - no matter what lie about freedom of religion that we are taught in school. If it was not founded on Christianity why do we swear on the Bible in courts? That's just one example of the tight integration.

Anyway, when is the last time Christians killed thousands of our own citizens in our own country?

Sure they may be extremist Muslims that had a part in 9/11, but what kind of scum is trying to put a mosque there just to start trouble and get publicity like this? Their intentions surely are not innocent. Even Obama, a Muslim himself, seems to realize this.

And now that we've taken the atheists to task, we'll take the Christians to task in the interest of equal time.

First of all, this country wasn't founded as a Christian country and the founding father's weren't Christians. They were deists, not Christians.

Second of all, calling a moderate Sunni Muslim who has openly opposed terrorism "scum" is going a little too far don't you think? The guy wants to open a community center and the community center just happens to have a mosque in it. How does it make him "scum"?

Side note - Obama is not a Muslim. He's a Christian. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

 

[hakr100]

Originally Posted by hakr100
3. Organized religion - virtually all organized religion - is built upon fear, superstition, and ignorance, and perhaps some day we'll move away from the harm it does and leave the dark ages behind.

I have to take great offense at this. Organized religion is certainly not perfect. Nothing on this planet is. But the fact that you're apparently just ignoring all of the good organized religion does is just wrong.

I'm not ignoring "the good" some organized religions do, or its adjacency to "perfection." I wasn't addressing that. What I was addressing was the fear, superstition, and ignorance that serve as the underpinnings of organized religion.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Originally Posted by hakr100
I'm not ignoring "the good" some organized religions do, or its adjacency to "perfection." I wasn't addressing that. What I was addressing was the fear, superstition, and ignorance that serve as the underpinnings of organized religion.

And you base this on what?

 

[hakr100]

And you base this on what?

Religion is an outgrowth of early man's attempts to explain what he didn't understand. The organized religions built upon those early explanations, and fears, superstitions and ignorance.

 

[tcv]

Since you think Muslims should have a right to build a Mosque on Ground Zero, you must think that Christians have the right to build a church on a concentration camp too, right?

Try to explain to me the difference.

 

[ZDroid1]

And you base this on what?

I would base it on the talking snake and the talking donkey and Moses' magic wand and all the other crap that only a gullible person would fall for.