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Mosque Being Built 2 Blocks Away From Ground Zero... What Do You Think?

Isthmus said:
I'm a New Yorker. What's your problem and what would you like to understand? :mad:
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Didn't you get the memo? New Yorkers are all elitist, godless, anti-american heathens hell-bent on enacting a socialist agenda to destroy this great nation of ours.

Oh, and they KILLED JESUS!

OK I'm going to take off my Limbaugh hat now.
 
zep said:
Didn't you get the memo? New Yorkers are all elitist, godless, anti-american heathens hell-bent on enacting a socialist agenda to destroy this great nation of ours.

Oh, and they KILLED JESUS!

OK I'm going to take off my Limbaugh hat now.
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You say that like it's a bad thing. :p
 
How many of you remember what happened that day. How many of you were there? So let me first say that a long time ago, I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. With that in mind I say they have a right Now again let me ask who remembers, who lives here and who lost a family member of their family that day? I myself lost 4 partners and over 166 friends. No joke my e-mail list got very short. Let me tell you that I picked up pieces of people breathed in their remains along with plverized cement and who knows what else. I am on a FDNY 3/4 disability from having a building almost fall on me. Three operations, loss of hearing and on meds you most likely never heard of. I walk around in a back brace on most days Sure the first Amendment is on their side and if it was not for alterior motives I would say go ahead. But the truth is this is not to build bridges. This is to shove it into the face of every American. Whether you are an American Muslim or whatever your religious belief. Nationalities or whatever you believe in. This is wrong and if you think it is right then you were not there or understand WTF happened. You didn't see what I saw or see al those peaceful Muslim's cheering in the streets of Brooklyn and Atlantic ave You didn't go to funerals for months after or see the pictures hanging on walls and boards looking for loved ones. You don't look every day at a open hole in the ground for the last 10 years. Or realize they are still finding pieces of people in the area. You don't watch families still trying to come to terms and see the children of my partners growing up without their dad. Ask them what they think about a so called cultural center. By the way that Greek Orthodox Church is where I went for refuge through the day and where they took the body of the decapitated FDNY priest. Ten years later the Blumburg administration can't find money or permits to fix it, but they wil bend backwards to help build this Mosque to shove it in the face of America. Ask what his political motives are that POS so called mayor. Anyone of you who think it is right are no better then the terrorists who flew the jets into the Towers or the Pentagon. You should be ashamed and you have no idea what we are going through
Ret LT. FDNY/EMS Medic__

This was posted by me has Raven71 on Android Central in their general forum before it was closed. If you are interested go to the site and read the topic there. Then also read the topic in that forum
My apologies to the moderator which will explain why it was closed and some more on my feelings. I will not get into this discussion anymore. If you were not there you will never understand.
 
The topic title asks, "..what do you think?"

What washes out for me, after going around and around with the issue, attempting to "be" on one then the other side of the issue for a time in an effort to understand better, often failing, I'm sure, I've come to a mode of thought that I will refrain from allowing to be a "conclusion."

That mode of thought is two-fold: that those of us with a huge, rather tender, sore area around our memories and losses having to do with the events of September 11th, 2001, are being usurped by louder Americans with anger at Moslems ("Arabs") in general. People who always have anger and pre-judgments of whole groups of others at the ready.

They steer a wide path around any understanding of the people they're currently targeting; that is essential to their activities, even to their lives, the very core of what keeps them going; they have to remain ignorant of their victims.

Secondly, we're seeing one of the differences between the way devoutly religious people, Moslems in particular, think and the way people with a social issue think: their sensitivities and loyalties are to their God, Allah, and most of them are willing to die rather than have a perceived order from Him disobeyed, erecting a Mosque in this case.

The location of that Mosque was, ostensibly, selected by a real estate broker (one with a middle eastern name, as I read). Our sensitivities are as strong as our patriotism, while there's are as strong as their faith. Quite a struggle, but there's will triumph, in my opinion.

The ideal solution to this is for another location to be brokered, of course, so that the notion of it being a "victory mosque" can be dispelled, although the distrust and even hatred we're seeing expressed toward Moslems will not stop, of course.
 
neverforget said:
How many of you remember what happened that day. How many of you were there? So let me first say that a long time ago, I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. With that in mind I say they have a right Now again let me ask who remembers, who lives here and who lost a family member of their family that day? I myself lost 4 partners and over 166 friends. No joke my e-mail list got very short. Let me tell you that I picked up pieces of people breathed in their remains along with plverized cement and who knows what else. I am on a FDNY 3/4 disability from having a building almost fall on me. Three operations, loss of hearing and on meds you most likely never heard of. I walk around in a back brace on most days Sure the first Amendment is on their side and if it was not for alterior motives I would say go ahead. But the truth is this is not to build bridges. This is to shove it into the face of every American. Whether you are an American Muslim or whatever your religious belief. Nationalities or whatever you believe in. This is wrong and if you think it is right then you were not there or understand WTF happened. You didn't see what I saw or see al those peaceful Muslim's cheering in the streets of Brooklyn and Atlantic ave You didn't go to funerals for months after or see the pictures hanging on walls and boards looking for loved ones. You don't look every day at a open hole in the ground for the last 10 years. Or realize they are still finding pieces of people in the area. You don't watch families still trying to come to terms and see the children of my partners growing up without their dad. Ask them what they think about a so called cultural center. By the way that Greek Orthodox Church is where I went for refuge through the day and where they took the body of the decapitated FDNY priest. Ten years later the Blumburg administration can't find money or permits to fix it, but they wil bend backwards to help build this Mosque to shove it in the face of America. Ask what his political motives are that POS so called mayor. Anyone of you who think it is right are no better then the terrorists who flew the jets into the Towers or the Pentagon. You should be ashamed and you have no idea what we are going through
Ret LT. FDNY/EMS Medic__

This was posted by me has Raven71 on Android Central in their general forum before it was closed. If you are interested go to the site and read the topic there. Then also read the topic in that forum
My apologies to the moderator which will explain why it was closed and some more on my feelings. I will not get into this discussion anymore. If you were not there you will never understand.
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It's only a matter of time before the mosque in NYC goes up in flames as well. It won't assuage your situation, but it will certainly speak volumes on behalf of those that don't want this thing built. Those naive enough to say "oh, just because it happened, doesn't mean it's because of such-and-such." It is, and it will.

I've tried to be neutral in most arguments, but Muslims (for this case, I'll say 'extremists' so as not to offend anyone) have been responsible for so much shit for as long as history has been recorded. Not all sharks kill humans, but does that mean we go around tickling their noses for fun until they do? Why is this any different? If we know a certain group of people are constantly blowing up trains, buildings, and celebrating when these things happen, why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt?

For those that know, Muslims are a very proud people. If they feel something is being thrown at them, they will complain, and they will not stop until THEY feel the problem is solved. When authorities realize they've done all they can do legally without hurting other groups yet they still hear from the Muslims, that's when problems start and the Muslims turn from being simply vocal to being downright angry. You get American flag burnings, "death to America," and airplanes using the 88th floor as a runway.

This lack of skepticism is mind-boggling.
 
smacky said:
I've tried to be neutral in most arguments, but Muslims (for this case, I'll say 'extremists' so as not to offend anyone) have been responsible for so much shit for as long as history has been recorded.
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Consider that the Muslim religion didn't really exist before the Seventh Century, it's more than a bit of a stretch to claim they've been "responsible for so much shit" for as long as history has been recorded.

Further, I wouldn't bet the farm on whether Christians or Muslims were responsible for more "shit."
 
I wasn't going to add anything but I hope if does get built that no harm comes to it or those that worship. Let me explain one other thing. I was not against it when it was first announced. I didn't give it a second thought. I am a Jew married to a Panamanian woman for over 20yrs. Have two kids one that went to a Catholic school and a Baptist School when I lived in East New York.
My sister in law has been married to a Muslim for 15 yrs. Some of my best friends are Muslims from Egypt and those who made it out of Iran. After talking to them and realizing through their eyes and feelings about the true motives about this (CULTURAL CENTER) that the true motives is to stick it into every Americans face.
Not my words but those who are in the loop on this matter. For that reason I allow my feelings of what happened to me and those who gave their lives. Ether it be a MOS-member of the service or civilian working that day now be part of my decision. The motives of this place are not what they are made out too be.
Can I prove it or will these people come forward? No they live in America and are scared of repercussions if they voice their opinion. That should give you some idea about CERTAIN FACTIONS of the Muslim community.
You all really need to check out what is being said oversees about this. If it is built they win and of it isn't, it will be used has an excuse for more terror attacks on this country.
 
mpw said:
Maybe you're right to have a very low regard for the people of New York, but I personally would hope that they would not decide to act lawlessly and violently towards the innocent people using this building if it were built.

But, unlike you, I think that people should be free to do what they want where it doesn't materially effect others, and that laws should be in place to stop people from doing wrong, and to punish people who do do wrong, but not to prevent people from doing no wrong in case others take unreasonable offense and actions against them.
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Ok. This mosque gets built. There was a story recently about the Muslims taking offense to the gay bar down the street, right? What do we do now, chief? Deny them any more say in the matter? You've already given them so much. You deny them now they'll cry foul that you're restricting their religious freedoms.
 
smacky said:
Ok. This mosque gets built. There was a story recently about the Muslims taking offense to the gay bar down the street, right? What do we do now, chief? Deny them any more say in the matter? You've already given them so much. You deny them now they'll cry foul that you're restricting their religious freedoms.
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Just so we're clear, you are equating allowing them to build a place of worship (or rather, not stopping them based solely upon the religion of the place of worship) to allowing them to shut down neighboring shops they dislike?

That's intellectually dishonest. I have a hard time believing that you honestly believe that those two are even remotely the same thing. I mean, seriously, one is a Constitutional right, and the other is illegal.

That's like saying. We've already given the NRA so much in allowing the public to carry guns, if we don't allow them to kill kids while at school, they are going to cry foul.

One is a Constitutional right, and one is illegal no matter WHO you are.
 
byteware said:
Just so we're clear, you are equating allowing them to build a place of worship (or rather, not stopping them based solely upon the religion of the place of worship) to allowing them to shut down neighboring shops they dislike?

That's intellectually dishonest. I have a hard time believing that you honestly believe that those two are even remotely the same thing. I mean, seriously, one is a Constitutional right, and the other is illegal.

That's like saying. We've already given the NRA so much in allowing the public to carry guns, if we don't allow them to kill kids while at school, they are going to cry foul.

One is a Constitutional right, and one is illegal no matter WHO you are.
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No. Denying them the mosque is denying them right to practice religious freedom, right? So ok, we let them build the mosque.

So we're allowing them to build this mosque, was there not an article earlier in this thread about them not happy with there being a gay bar down the street? What will we do then? Say no? Yeah, that seems like the proper thing to do to avoid infringing on the homo's rights, but the Muslims will still be angry. And that's when the problems occur.
 
Come one smacky, we can have a conversation without having to use pejorative terms such as Homo to make your point.

BTW a point, We are Allowing anyone to build anything. That right they already have. they still have to meet a mountain of local requirements and proper obligations to the MTA and the owners of half the site, but those are technical issues. They might not have the approvals they need form the city, yet, but they definitely have the right.

That said, what the location and scale of the project is in very poor taste.

As for a gay bar, a strip joint, liquor store, a pork store, etc. If those businesses met the letter of the law and had the approval from the city to open in the area this center is being planned for, there is precious little this center could do about it, as it should be. That said, I can tell you that a strip joint would not be opening in the area as NYC has very strict laws regarding where such businesses are allowed.
 
I have debated whether or not to chime in on this issue for weeks for a number of reasons. To begin with, I have been touched personally by the events of 9/11 (as were many thousands of other people where I'm from) several times over. I also witnessed that attack first hand and quite helplessly from across the river in an office in Jersey City. I've always worried that my feelings would affect my judgment when talking about it.

I have listened to both side of this debate here and one thing I seem to keep noticing is that there are those that are against it and those that just seem to be not opposed to it! What I mean is I have a hard time recognizing anyone who is actually "pro-mosque"! Now this is just my opinion of course and I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seems like the viewpoint of those not opposed to the mosque are more about what the rights of the group proposing it are. I find that interesting as it seems more a case of what is right vs. the rights of others.

While I applaud those concerned about the rights of others, I am curious to hear what you feel is going to be beneficial about the mosque at that specific location. What are your thoughts on positives to the local community? What are your thoughts on its leading to a coming together of people? How will the presence of this mosque aid in the healing process? Now before anyone gets flustered by these questions, these questions point to the very reasons stated by those wanting to build it. I am curious to see what those defending it think.

Now I am not going to sit here and even attempt to guess at the motivations of the mosque developers, but I suspect that if they wanted to foster good will with the people of the community and other faiths and even the families of the victims of those attacks as they have stated, that they would be VERY anxious to work with that community to find a solution that is acceptable to the very people they wish to build bridges with.

I would imagine if their intent was to build bridges they would not get angry and frustrated about what they want or what they feel they are entitled to and push for a location that so many find offensive. What adult here can tell me that they have a healthy relationship with anyone who they bullied? What adult here has had a healthy relationship with anyone that has not contained compromise?
 
mpw said:
I still don't see what your argument is here; they should have the right to practice their faith, the club-goers should have the right to be gay. What do you propose; that both are denied their rights, in the interests of equality, because you think only one of them shouldn't be allowed.

If the Muslims are unhappy with equality then that's their problem, they have the right to be free to pursue happiness, not to prevent others from the same pursuit.
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When Muslims are known to blow things up and commit acts of terrorism (not all, nor are they the only ones) do we really want to tell them "live with it!" and then twiddle our thumbs and wait for armageddon?

Isthmus said:
Come one smacky, we can have a conversation without having to use pejorative terms such as Homo to make your point.

BTW a point, We are Allowing anyone to build anything. That right they already have. they still have to meet a mountain of local requirements and proper obligations to the MTA and the owners of half the site, but those are technical issues. They might not have the approvals they need form the city, yet, but they definitely have the right.

That said, what the location and scale of the project is in very poor taste.

As for a gay bar, a strip joint, liquor store, a pork store, etc. If those businesses met the letter of the law and had the approval from the city to open in the area this center is being planned for, there is precious little this center could do about it, as it should be. That said, I can tell you that a strip joint would not be opening in the area as NYC has very strict laws regarding where such businesses are allowed.
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"Homos" is short for homosexual. I don't feel like typing it all out all the time so I shorten it. If we're going to be technical here, that's all it is: a shortened version of the original word. I didn't mean it to offend, but I will not stop using an abbreviated form of it because it may offend someone. I don't think the mods can say anything either, but neither the word, nor the intent was malicious.
 
mpw said:
When 'it', is freedom and equality, then yes I do say that they're going to have to live with it.

You say yourself that it's not all Muslims, and not limited to Muslims, that commit acts of terrorism, so why bend the rules just for them? or are you saying that because the minority of Christians are prepared to mount acts of terrorism against abortion providers, that that is reason enough to make abortion illegal?
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Sure. If people pray at abortion clinics.
 
smacky said:
No. Denying them the mosque is denying them right to practice religious freedom, right? So ok, we let them build the mosque.

So we're allowing them to build this mosque, was there not an article earlier in this thread about them not happy with there being a gay bar down the street? What will we do then? Say no? Yeah, that seems like the proper thing to do to avoid infringing on the homo's rights, but the Muslims will still be angry. And that's when the problems occur.
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People bitching about the community center are being jackasses.

The organizers bitching about a gay bar in NYC (:lol:) are being jackasses.

There. That was easy.
 
mpw said:
So to clarify and summarize your POV:
Because some within a group take action that the others within the group disagree with you would limit the rights of all within that group.

You would take the right to build a place of worship away from these Muslims.

And to make it fair you would then take the rights of gay people to use a bar.

You're also okay with making abortion illegal because some people are willing to kill those who disagree with you for religious reasons, that abortions should be legal.

So you'd trample over your own beliefs, and force people into having children they do not want even though you know it to be unfair, on them and the child, because the alternative is freedom, which an extreme minority are willing to kill to limit, and you'll (while perhaps not supporting them) not stand up in defense of freedom against these terrorists, except when you want to limit the innocent Muslims freedoms because of the extremist terrorists that fight falsely in their name.

Well that's cleared it up!?
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Do not put words in my mouth. I never said the gays should not have a bar. Go back and read what I said again.
 
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