NSA Secretly Collecting Phone Records

[BCM]

I love how our bill of rights is being desecrated over acts that kill less than a hundred people a year (excluding 9/11, of course).

What did Rahm Emanuel say ""Never let a good crisis go to waste."

 

[Slug]

Please keep the thread on-topic.

If you wish to discuss gun control in the US, please use the appropriate thread.

 

[copestag]

haven't we really all believed this has been going on for years anyhow? is this really a surprise?

the true tragedy here is that this non-issue has taken all the focus away from the true issues.... of course I'm sure it was designed to happen that way in the media

its more than coincidence that just as things are looking ominous for the regime due to several scandals (IRS political targeting, AP/others illegal wiretapping, Benghazi), this pops up and is the sole focus of all the MSM... haven't heard about those other issues in a while have ya?

while I don't like the fact that they are gathering my records...... I do have a certain right to privacy.... it appears this is going to be a non-issue.... as they 'supposedly' aren't actually listening to the calls or reading your emails (of course I'm sure we've all always assumed they already did that for years as well)....... simply creating a database of connections

the scarey part here is several fold:

there actually is a court that has to approve these actions as defined in the law that allows these actions to occur

they are currently battling in court trying to keep hidden the fact that this court has ruled against these actions they are taking..... and called them unconstitutional

but the real kicker is....... to my knowledge..... none of these actions have EVER resulted in stopping a single terrorist plot...... correct me if I'm wrong... and I'm sure many will...... but every so called plot they have ever stopped was a plot instigated by them

hey kid I'm from the govt.... will you go buy this bomb for me ...... sure mister I trust the govt........ hey kid you're under arrest for buying bombs

there was a time when coercive actions were illegal and frowned upon...... now they make international news and become a convenient excuse to gather phone and ISP records in the name of safety

 

[jova33]

I think the patriot act and FISA are pretty big issues. They've been used against Americans more than they've ever been used against "terrorists"
I think the worst part is congress, the people we voted into office, approved these, so this isn't all Obama's fault,c but he's certainly to blame as well.
Every year our civil liberties are eroded, and these laws will be upheld as long as We the People allow it.
I've heard of a class action lawsuit against NSA, and you bet I'm getting in on that. I googled "class action lawsuit NSA" and apparently this has been tried in 2006. The people were suing AT&T for handing over information to the NSA... yadda yadda yadda, same thing Verizon was ordered to do. The court threw the case out. I don't remember that case, did it get a lot of media attention? Do you think a new class action lawsuit would draw more attention? I think there's more civil libertarians in the Senate now than there were 7 years ago.
"Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

 

[SiempreTuna]

What I don't understand is people from the UK saying, "what's the big deal, in my country they do it all the time"

Err .. no we don't.

There was some proposed legislation to allow this kind of thing, however this was - very commendably - blocked by the juniour partner in the government so currently, it is NOT allowed.

In fact, this kind of monitoring requires specific ministerial approval for each individual targeted. The news today is full of serious questions being raised about whether the NSA shared any the data it has been gathering with it's UK equivalent because it would - currently - be illegal for UK intelligence agencies to take that data.

Well Mr UK, this is 'Murica, the home of the free

Sorry - always make me laugh: you can't even cross the road in the US

and we don't tolerate government treading on ur freedom

.. err .. except that you did. 12 years ago, when you allowed that most un-patriotic of acts, the Patroit Act to be passed.

I love how our bill of rights is being desecrated over acts that kill less than a hundred people a year (excluding 9/11, of course).

Well, quite.

In fact, the use of the War on a Noun to 'justify' things like the invasion of Iraq, torture and Guantamo has been the single most significant cause of terrorism across the world.

If you were a conspiracy nut, you'd think Eisenhower's military industrial complex set the whole up deliberately ..

What I find amusing...or sad (I'm not sure) is that our elected government complains to China for hacking our systems...yet the same elected government does the same thing, except to our own citizens. It's all fragged...

.. and then Western governments wonder why the Chinese don't take too much notice when they kvetch about human rights

The Conservatives - our closest equivalent of the Republicans - is particularly hypocritical here as it's currently trying to reverse our Human Rights laws. Basically, it's wants the UK electorate to make like a turkey and vote for Xmas.

 

[saptech]

J. Edgar Hoover has been doing this during his term as Head of the FBI, from 1935-1972...nothing really new here!

J. Edgar Hoover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jova33]

@SimpleTuna, the patriot act was a knee jerk reaction our government pushed through, most without even reading what was in it, and it has been used more to persecute Americans than any "terrorist"
That being said, most Americans I know are against it.

 

[dan330]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-and-the-disruption-of-government/

Edward Snowden: Traitor or Hero?

I bet ..there is going to be a book/movie about his life..
but will he get royalties?

 

[SiempreTuna]

@SimpleTuna, the patriot act was a knee jerk reaction our government pushed through, most without even reading what was in it, and it has been used more to persecute Americans than any "terrorist"
That being said, most Americans I know are against it.

.. enyet the most exteme measures in the act were renewed in 2005/6 and again in 2011 (maybe more times, I can't be bothered to look it up).

Ain't democracy great?

The UK also used the excuse of terrorism to pass some similar - though way, way less comprehensive - laws. This despite decades fighting very able and well funded (by Americans, as it happens) terrorists without any need for similar laws.

The UK laws have seen most extensive use against heinous crimes like people putting their bins out on the wrong day.

And then politicians wonder why they're not trusted ..

 

[jova33]

Well I was reading the the other day that the less the people care about their civil liberties, the less the government cares.
In the past we had such outrageous laws like the sedition acts, that were removed as soon people took a stand. I would hope people of America would wake up an realize their government has and will do evil.
Oh, and apparently the UK isn't so safe from snooping. The NSA has been collecting data on you and handing it over to the UK government. The NSA isn't restricted by the UK's laws.

 

[dan330]

Well I was reading the the other day that the less the people care about their civil liberties, the less the government cares.
In the past we had such outrageous laws like the sedition acts, that were removed as soon people took a stand. I would hope people of America would wake up an realize their government has and will do evil.
Oh, and apparently the UK isn't so safe from snooping. The NSA has been collecting data on you and handing it over to the UK government. The NSA isn't restricted by the UK's laws.

then does that hold true for vise versa?

other gov can collect data about usa.. and give it to our gov?

 

[OcalaFlGuy]

I'm not even sure where I saw it, I think it was in a comment on a thread at T-Mobile News.

"Now I finally understand the Verizon Share Everything plan."

I don't care who you are, that's FUNNY right there.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

[jova33]

then does that hold true for vise versa?

other gov can collect data about usa.. and give it to our gov?

That's a good question, but why would our government have to when they made it legal for them to do it themselves?
And Russia warned the US about the older Chechen that took part in the Boston bombings because of his internet activity, so apparently there is some intelligence sharing.

Edit: in other news, while I was at the Verizon store today getting a new SIM card, I asked the guy helping me what his thoughts were on the whole NSA/Verizon thing. "I have NO thoughts on the matter"
"You have no thoughts, or you've already been told not to comment on it?"
"Exactly."

 

[ElasticNinja]

Oh, and apparently the UK isn't so safe from snooping. The NSA has been collecting data on you and handing it over to the UK government. The NSA isn't restricted by the UK's laws.

People are very pissed off about this here. Seen a lot of MEPs in particular baying for blood, the Commission is not too pleased either. National government leaders are quiet but officials seem dismayed.

A load of shite really. The NSA is spying on us foreigners. Perhaps we should start monitoring all American communications what with the threat posed by war hawks and climate deniers. They'll kill far more than terrorists.

 

[copestag]

I think a few may be missing the point of the NSA...... theyre supposed to be spying on foreigners

their mission vision clearly states "global dominance"

you dont think James Bond spies on the Brits do you? of course not...... hes always in Hong Kong or Monte Carlo, even America a few times.... but never spying on the Brits

 

[jova33]

Well, A) the NSA shouldn't be spying on us, and B) they shouldn't be spying on our allies and handing that info over to governments where they can't spy on their own citizens.

I read about an idea from Ron Paul once. Yeah, a lot of his ideas are extremely radical, but they make sense. But this idea was to disband the CIA, NSA, and all foreign spying, espionage, and overthrowing governments. Crazy, right?
But it makes sense. CIA involvement in the overthrow of Iran's government in the 50's led to problems then and now. The US supported Saddam and Iraq because they were against Iran. Then, Afghanistan had a Soviet backed socialist government. Women were as free as most civilized societies, and they weren't raped, beaten, and didn't have to wear sheets in public. Then the CIA dumped millions into arming the rebellion against the government there. Without US support, Afghan forces would've squashed the rebellion, and the region would've been relatively peaceful. But we were arming what would become the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and look where that got us. 2,000+ killed in a terrorist act against the US. 5,000+ coalition forces killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who knows how many Iraqi and Afghan lives have been lost.
The point is, meddling in other nation's affairs has made us no friends across the globe, and the blow back of such meddling has lead to costly wars.
The US is supposed to be a beckon of light that other countries strive to be like. Our government was supposed to be the example of what to be, not the government that overthrows other governments and forces democracy upon them.

 

[SiempreTuna]

The NSA has been collecting data on you and handing it over to the UK government. The NSA isn't restricted by the UK's laws.

According to the statement made by our Foreign Secretary (=secretary of state) in parliament, the UK intelligence agencies only take data from the NSA where they already have specific approval from a minister, i.e. it's all legal.

He then went on to describe the things ministers consider before granting the authority .. without, of course, mentioning what %age are ever turned down.

Perhaps relevant: his party has been trying to pass a law that would give the security service blanket authority to collect even more data than the NSA has been accused of collecting on all UK residents.

Well, A) the NSA shouldn't be spying on us, and B) they shouldn't be spying on our allies and handing that info over to governments where they can't spy on their own citizens

Apparently, they are acting within the law as it currently stands.

What has come out over the last couple of days is that law may not actually be constitutional but the Supreme Court has refused to hear any challenges to it on the grounds that the people who have tried were not 'competent' to challenge it.

If you believe the leaks, there is also evidence that the oversight commitees were repeatedly lied to / mislead (you pick) over what the NSA was doing.

Basically: no checks (coz of misleading info) and no balances (because the supreme court refuses to do it's job).

disband the CIA, NSA, and all foreign spying, espionage, and overthrowing governments

What you say about the actions of the CIA etc is spot on, however these things weren't done by renegade CIA officers: the CIA was implementing government policy.

Removing the CIA etc would not solve the problem, it would just mean the government would turn to other agencies to implement policy.

The issue is the policy, not the agency tasked with implementing it.

 

[regoldo]

Q about security
IF my phone enters say a mall and starts looking say for a WiFi AP, but does not connect automatically, just says that WiFi is available, did it have to transmit anything so that my MAC address can be caught? I thought it does not transmit anything unless I ask the phone to connect to the AP. I just want to make sure I am right.

 

[Slug]

Once again, please keep the thread on-topic.

If you wish to discuss political parties in the UK, please create an appropriate thread.

 

[jova33]

Well if the public knew what the law was, it would've never been approved. There should be no secret laws in a free society.

 

[SiempreTuna]

Very true. It's said that these laws enjoyed majority public support when they passed, but how well informed was that support?

In both the US and the UK there's the problem that the laws are a bit vague and when you (or rather, journalists) ask about the details, they're told it's classified.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I read about an idea from Ron Paul once. Yeah, a lot of his ideas are extremely radical, but they make sense. But this idea was to disband the CIA, NSA, and all foreign spying, espionage, and overthrowing governments. Crazy, right?

You really do not want to live in a country that does not know what the other guy is up to. If you think RP is right, you should read a tad more. We must have spying, plain and simple.

 

[ElasticNinja]

You really do not want to live in a country that does not know what the other guy is up to. If you think RP is right, you should read a tad more. We must have spying, plain and simple.

I don't really think you need to spy on our companies in order to get a competitive advantage for example, or the exam trials and tribulations of some kid in Izmir.

 

[jova33]

You really do not want to live in a country that does not know what the other guy is up to. If you think RP is right, you should read a tad more. We must have spying, plain and simple.

Well, most of our present day enemies come from yesterday's CIA adventures.

 

[SiempreTuna]

As I said above, the problem is not the agency tasked with implementing policy, the problem is the policy itself.

We need to at least try to learn from history and stop putting short term gain ahead of long term pain.

Which is very much easier said than done, of course