NSA Secretly Collecting Phone Records

[jova33]

True. How can the public make an informed decision when those decisions are clouded in secrecy.

A lot of Americans supported the Iraq war when the only information that was given was being spoon fed to the media by the government. I knew it was BS the whole time, especially when president Bush went on TV and gave Saddam an ultimatum that would've been impossible to meet.

About the whole NSA thing, I heard something the other day on TV that made too much sense, "It's not that they broke the law by doing this, it's the fact that they didn't have to."
In America, we have a representative democracy. We elect people to represent our ideals and communities. I don't know how any of our representatives could justify that this is what the people who elected me into office would want me to do.

 

[SiempreTuna]

A lot of Americans supported the Iraq war .. I knew it was BS the whole time

Don't get me started on the Iraq war! Let's just say it was criminal and everyone knew it was criminal before they even went in.

About the whole NSA thing, I heard something the other day on TV that made too much sense, "It's not that they broke the law by doing this, it's the fact that they didn't have to."

Exactly!

In America, we have a representative democracy. We elect people to represent our ideals and communities. I don't know how any of our representatives could justify that this is what the people who elected me into office would want me to do.

The thing is: people supported it. Many didn't know the extent of what they were supporting and some may be having second thoughts now, but there are plenty who still think its just fine - just check out the number of people defending it in the press.

 

[sntaylor]

Think this kinda says it all

 

[Bob Maxey]

Think this kinda says it all

no, it says one side. Us Hawks have a different POV.

 

[EarlyMon]

This may be very interesting to many here -

Government surveillance, it's not as illegal as you think it is

It's also on-topic.

As Slug has said, the New Thread button still works.

Threads that wander a lot - c'mon - everyone here knows what happens when that happens.

Cheers, thanks!

 

[ElasticNinja]

I saw someone mention that the problem is not that it's illegal - it's that it's legal!

Anyway, surveillance is an issue, but any concept of storing communications etc is rather bothering, especially when it's be a government I have nothing to do with.

 

[copestag]

lets run through a brief synopsis of the key elements in the timeline so far......

snowden leaked the info on what was happening......... of course there was initial panic and uproar..... which somewhat settled after the regime and the puppet media assured everyone that it was nothing to worry about

then congressional hearings were held....... where more info came out but seemed to play into the nothing to worry about storyline..... and we were told that the only thing being tracked was numbers....... no actual email (etc) was being read and no phone calls were being listened to

then the president of the regime gave a speech in which he clearly stated that nobody was listening to our phone calls and nobody was reading our emails..... etc etc

then there were more hearings in which a high ranking official said of his previous testimony that although he didnt tell the truth..... he told the least dishonest lie they could come up with...... basically admitting perjury

and now after being told time and again........ swearing upon swearing........ we have nothing to worry about....... they are only collecting numbers and innocuous data

NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants | Politics and Law - CNET News

they lied again....... so your worst fears are real....... they truely are doing everything we have been told....... they are spying on americans

mind you the very court setup to determine what they can and cannot do has already told them they cannot do this........ not to mention the USSC has issued many past rulings on privacy......

I think prison for anyone involved or having knowledge of........ straight to the top...... as far back as it needs to go

if it goes to Bush/Obama/whoever....... prison

forget the "this is legal" argument........ there are rulings by the 'secret' court setup to determine what is and isnt legal that clearly state this is illegal....... theyve blatantly defied the law

ask yourself this....... what punishment or standard would you be held to if you had committed these crimes?


edit: almost forgot something thats been bugging me...... yet nobody seems to be talking about it

if they arent recording our calls...... which they have said time and again they are not...... only phone numbers........ then how exactly did they go back and listen to all the phone conversations that took place between the bombers and conspirators of the Boston Marathon bombings?

curious minds want to know

 

[jova33]

I think what should happen is anyone responsible should be resigned to a different position at the same rank and pay. Then if someone did something truly illegal, they should by charged and immediately pardoned, then get high ranking positions in defense contracting companies. That's justice.

Edit: but for real, sounds like they're recording everything, and then if someone does something wrong, then they'll go back and listen to all their recordings. Either way it's unconstitutional, and the FAA allows this.

 

[Bob Maxey]

This may be very interesting to many here -

Government surveillance, it's not as illegal as you think it is

It's also on-topic.

As Slug has said, the New Thread button still works.

Threads that wander a lot - c'mon - everyone here knows what happens when that happens.

Cheers, thanks!

First, how ya been Early? Seems I have not read you in awhile.

That said . . .

Thanks for the article link. We sometimes forget that what seems illegal is not always so. We tend to react to something we think is illegal and some people argue what is, perhaps a moot point.

 

[EarlyMon]

First, how ya been Early? Seems I have not read you in awhile.

That said . . .

Thanks for the article link. We sometimes forget that what seems illegal is not always so. We tend to react to something we think is illegal and some people argue what is, perhaps a moot point.

Good thanks!

Spammers are really attacking us so I'm not out in public so much lately.

Thanks to everyone reporting them, we all appreciate it!

Glad the article was interesting.

 

[dan330]

are they really collecting RECORDED conversations???
I was thinking about this .. and I just don't see how.

I don't think it is possible for them to have actual people sitting and listening to conversations as it happens. that is just impossible.

then there is the theory.. that phone companies are recording all conversations... then they are giving the NSA a copy of these files. Can any hardware or system be big enough to hold this?
there are many wireless phone companies.. then you have land lines.. and internet phones too. lets just make this simple and only talk about 1... Verizon Wireless.
They have about 100 Million clients. lets just imagine how big a file it would be for them to save all conversations for 1 week! lets say that the NSA want to have at least 1 year of recorded conversation from Verizon. holly crap batman! that is one big ass file!
does Verizon have such a drive/farm?

Now.. NSA has to have a drive/farm to get these files from ALL communication companies. and I am sure it would go back several years. Really? where would that go?

I am guessing they just don't have such a system and don't have these full conversation saved. I am guessing it is mostly just informational data.. about who is calling who.
I think conversations are temp recorded as it is happening.. and
I also think there is a program that listens to the line.. for "hot / Key" words... and if enough of these hot bottoms are hit.. that call's temp record will be saved for future auditing.


that is my theory only.. I aint got no idea what going on.

 

[jova33]

Uhm..... this farm/drive is under construction in Utah.
http://m.guardiannews.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/nsa-intelligence-industrial-complex-abuse

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/06/11/inside-nsas-secret-utah-data-center/

5 zetabytes of data. I can't wait til I can pick up a zetabyte of data.

Edit: I like how the NSA says they would never illegally spy on US citizens. Of course they wouldn't. The FISA Amendments Act and the FISA Court gives them authorization to do it legally.

Big Brother is Watching

 

[Co1dNight]

Straight Talk here. Hate Verizon. So overpriced.

 

[jova33]

Just because a document with Verizon named in it got leaked, doesn't mean such orders from the FISA Court don't exist for every other carrier in the US. Just saying.

 

[SiempreTuna]

Latest news this side of the pond is that our NSA equivalent has been 'tapping' 11 (or so) fibre optic cables. Apparently, they're only able to hold the data for about a month before they run out of space.

Makes me think that recording all calls and storing them for years would simply not be practical .. yet. I've worked on DWHes for a couple of the mobile networks here and even the smaller one had more than 50 million call records per day (call records consisting of the sort of data the NSA admits to storing, i.e. metadata like source and target number, duration). Keeping up with just that volume was a struggle: imagine trying to track that plus the vastly greater data volumes call content would require. I think we need a few more iterations of Moore's Law ..

 

[copestag]

the average audio phone conversation is about 1Mb per minute........ the average cell user talks about 450 minutes a month

you can do the math with that however you like

as a starting place though its worth mentioning that in 2003 it was estimated since the beginning of time on earth..... humans have only spoken the equivalent of 42 zetabytes of data..... you have to imagine a very small percentage of that is over the phone

 

[dan330]

Uhm..... this farm/drive is under construction in Utah.
The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse | Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson

Inside the NSA

5 zetabytes of data. I can't wait til I can pick up a zetabyte of data.

Edit: I like how the NSA says they would never illegally spy on US citizens. Of course they wouldn't. The FISA Amendments Act and the FISA Court gives them authorization to do it legally.

Big Brother is Watching

the average audio phone conversation is about 1Mb per minute........ the average cell user talks about 450 minutes a month

you can do the math with that however you like

as a starting place though its worth mentioning that in 2003 it was estimated since the beginning of time on earth..... humans have only spoken the equivalent of 42 zetabytes of data..... you have to imagine a very small percentage of that is over the phone

so are you sayin... you think NSA can and is .. keeping all recorded conversations for several years back??? really? the cost to develop and store...
my conversation with my exgfs.. are on there? my mom's conversations with her friends about the latest gossip of who is cheating on whom?
that X 100 millions of other boring conversation by others x months x years?

all stored for????
I just don't buy it.
I think it is way more selective...

and of course I can be wrong.. and they have some alien tech that has unlimited storage.. it could happen

 

[copestag]

Im saying:

A) its not NEARLY as much data as you believe it is

B) theyve had the storage capacity for many years to store the amount of data it actually is

C) yes they are storing every single piece of data out there

D) no they are not actively reviewing every single piece of data out there.... there are filters and triggers that point to the data they actively review..... the remaining data is cataloged by participants and stored for future reference as needed...... by the way 1Mb can be compressed A LOT for storage........ you could fit a persons phone conversations for an entire year on a $5 thumbdrive from wal-mart

E) case in point the boston bombers...... they claimed those guys werent on their radar... no reason for them to have watched them.. then miraculously several days later.... they cited transcripts from phone recordings between the bombers and other parties...... if they werent specifically watching these guys how did they go back in time and get those recordings? (of course if they were watching these guys then would you be suggesting that the US Govt was responsible for knowingly allowing the bombings to happen?)

 

[jova33]

so are you sayin... you think NSA can and is .. keeping all recorded conversations for several years back??? really? the cost to develop and store...
my conversation with my exgfs.. are on there? my mom's conversations with her friends about the latest gossip of who is cheating on whom?
that X 100 millions of other boring conversation by others x months x years?

all stored for????
I just don't buy it.
I think it is way more selective...

and of course I can be wrong.. and they have some alien tech that has unlimited storage.. it could happen

And those pictures of you know what that you sent your girlfriend that she deleted, yeah, the NSA has them.

Edit: I downloaded an app called Call Recorder because an ex was harassing me. Something was wrong with it, I think it only recorded my end of the conversation, so I forgot about it, forgot to turn it off. This was last year. The other day, I opened the app and it had been recording since last year. Barely made a dent in my storage.
I use my phone as a phone quite a bit too. And to think of all those 30-40 min hold times dealing with airlines, social security, VA, VA hospital.
Edit edit: I'm still against this whole system. Google and everyone else is lying about their involvement with PRISM. Must of congress and Obama for some reason think this makes us safer.
What can you do though? Become Amish and forsake technology?

 

[Bob Maxey]

Uhm..... this farm/drive is under construction in Utah.
The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse | Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson

Inside the NSA

5 zetabytes of data. I can't wait til I can pick up a zetabyte of data.

Edit: I like how the NSA says they would never illegally spy on US citizens. Of course they wouldn't. The FISA Amendments Act and the FISA Court gives them authorization to do it legally.

Big Brother is Watching

My brother does some of this and that at the new data canter. Nothing like spying, construction only.

They take this site seriously and they do not like those with a humor bone.

I hear it will double in size eventually.

 

[zuben el genub]

Motorola Has Been Collecting User Data - Business Insider

Is it also the phone? Did Verizon request these specs? Does Google have any control over Motorola policies at all?

Business sites are now starting to post articles.

 

[SiempreTuna]

Motorola Has Been Collecting User Data - Business Insider

Looks like the data is going to Moto, not Verizon so it's Moto/Google in the spotlight (again), here.

Yesterday's el Reg story said that the phone was sending data associated with:

Facebook, Twitter, Picasa, Photobucket, YouTube, IMAP and POP3 e-mail accounts, Yahoo! Mail accounts, Flickr, and RSS feeds. For many account types .. passwords are included. ..

Device IMEI and IMSI, phone number, carrier, and a host of other device-specific details are also captured

Even worse: some of the data (not the FB ID/pwd) is being sent in clear!

An obvious legitimate excuse for this kind of transfer might if it were related to some sort of cloud backup however there's no mention of the phone owner having being informed of any such feature in either article.

So the NSA's collecting call details while Google/Moto's collecting everything else - welcome to the 21st century ..

Maybe that "Designed by you" slogan should read "Designed by you .. whether you like it or not"

 

[SiempreTuna]

Latest news: the French are also at it!

Which makes their anger at the US a tad hypocritical.

Seem the French DGSE have had a programme in place since 2008 collecting data on all electronic communications in and out of France. For calls, they've only been collecting metadata however for e-mail and SMS, they also have content. It's not clear what's collected from things like FB, Twitter etc.

The agency also has "la plus forte

 

[jova33]

why are they so intent on spying on us?

 

[chrlswltrs]

why are they so intent on spying on us?

Because they are a group of power hungry criminal thugs. During war you expect intelligence gathering on the enemy. DHS has openly admitted that patriots and people that love freedom are the enemy. It is the same reason totalitarian governments always want to control everything about every aspect of your life. Without information there can not be total control.