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Root Important post by P3droid (For GB users especially)
- Thread starter FragDroidX
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- motorola droid x
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yawdapaah
Android Expert
No, this is a new stance. From what I've read, it applies to the newer releases.
Secondly, the tinkering they are talking about are things like Sense and MotoBLUR and other things that slow down OS upgrade turnarounds and cause instability. One example of this is Bing search. VZW forced it on Fascinate users when no one wanted it. What's the point? You can download it from market right?
Google should have veto power over their OS. They don't stop anyone from rooting the Nexus line. They, absolutely, should restrict the changes carriers make to our phones because not all the changes are positive and cause massive turnaround times on updates. I don't care if Sense, Blur, Mediascape can be run (by choice) over stock android but don't force it on us.
Google promised to decouple everything from the core OS to ensure quick updates. I'm still waiting on this and I hope this is a step toward that goal.
@Steven: The problem is not with monitoring I doubt that anyone cares about that (we've been monitored for years, ever since we set 'foot' on the internet). The problem is degradation/denial of service to rooted phones. That's what's unacceptable. It could potentially mean no mods, themes, optimizations. Or maybe it won't mean anything, but it's disturbing nonetheless.
Kevmueller
Android Expert
So I read the add on portion, other than the rooting part coming out, this seems like it may just be more detail on old news. If you all remember awhile ago Verizon came out and said they were going to start throttling data on the top 5% of all data use. Maybe this is further how they are going to do it, if you are rooted and in the top 5%, or over the use of a non rooted phone they are going to throttle your data. I have heard reports of people going over 10GB every month. I am sorry I never switch to WiFi and I have only gone over 5GB 1 time and been under 2GB 2 times since I got my phone in August.
To me yes Verizon is trying to protect us from ourselves, which I don't like, but we all know the stories of the people who did not know what they were doing and had to get a replacement phone. Also Verizon is looking at the PR, it is easier to try and eliminate people rooting their phones (just look at the new Gingerbread) then not allowing warranty's to be accepted.
As I have said before I can live with no warranty if the phone is rooted. I could also live with my data being watched more closely to make sure I am not using a paid service for free (Mobile 3G Hotspot). Reading all of this I think that is what Verizon is trying to do. I just wish there was a better way that they could do this.
To me yes Verizon is trying to protect us from ourselves, which I don't like, but we all know the stories of the people who did not know what they were doing and had to get a replacement phone. Also Verizon is looking at the PR, it is easier to try and eliminate people rooting their phones (just look at the new Gingerbread) then not allowing warranty's to be accepted.
As I have said before I can live with no warranty if the phone is rooted. I could also live with my data being watched more closely to make sure I am not using a paid service for free (Mobile 3G Hotspot). Reading all of this I think that is what Verizon is trying to do. I just wish there was a better way that they could do this.
ECFfighter7232
Android Expert
yeah, i dont see this going anywhere positive.
and like someone else says....this all went from fun tinkering to sucky fast....
think, personnaly; im gonna stay on fis261....take some time off and find another hobby....getting to where i can work on my grandpas old truck and the wife is starting a garden....ive pretty much learned all i wanted to learn with android. it will prob. be ruined anyway.
im fine with the two themes i run and the rom im on. i figure why worry about it, but im not taking anymore updates....which will put me behind on any dev. work that comes out and useless to work any themes. (yes, i understand the "already been tracked....etc. etc." statement). im just saying what im gonna do.
gentlemen, its a beautiful day outside and im gonna find something else to do....
its been a pleasure, ill see you guys around now and again....
take it easy and kick your feet up faber, I think ill be doing much the same. relaxing, drinking a beer and enjoying life. thanks for your help with all of the theming questions
Metfanant
Android Expert
new releases...as in the not yet released Gingerbread for the DX??...
it doesn't matter if it applies to newer releases...that means HTC's locked bootloader? approved by Google...VZW's call home features? approved by Google....Blur? approved by Google...Sense? approved by Google...
right, and part of the MotoBLUR tinkering is these call home features...
if Google was so worried about that, then why not force all manufacturers to install Vanilla Android?...the answer? because they care more about making money than they do about customer choice, or being "open"
who says nobody wanted it?...VZW wanted it...isn't Android an open source platform?...part of being open source is allowing things to be tinkered with...
sure you can download it from the market if you want it...but does it hurt anyone if it comes pre-installed?...no...
you realize that you're condemning VZW for cracking down on openness, yet when they took an "open" approach by including a different search option...you're applauding Google for clamping things down...
But they created what is supposedly an "open source" OS...by making it open source, they inherently give up their rights to crack down on what others are doing with it...
would it be ok if Google FORCED Vanilla Android on those of us that like Blur??...
but still...
remember that you are buying a subsidized phone FROM VZW...and than using that device to access a service PROVIDED by VZW...and if something goes wrong with your phone you RETURN it to VZW...and its REPLACED by VZW...
These are all things that are influenced by rooting, modding, tinkering, overclocking, tethering, etc...Verizon is protecting THEIR property, and THEIR customers...we might not like it...but you CANNOT blame Verizon...
yawdapaah
Android Expert
No Gingerbread was released to Moto before this announcement was made. It's unreleased to you and I because Moto and VZW are messing with it.
Well, we have no precedent to go on, with respect to bootloader so I can't comment on that. However, you're basically restating my argument. Google, apparently, wants power to regulate stuff like Sense and BLUR and I have no problem with that.
So why do you have a problem with Google wanting to regulate the tinkering? This point assumes that Google's new stance, which came to light 4 days ago, came before Moto got it's hands on GB. We were using GB 4 days ago.
I'd like them to do that and make Sense, BLUR 3rd part apps that run on top of stock Android. Also, what money is Google making off the OEMs? Other than advertising money, OEMs don't pay any license fees AFAIK.
Some of the Fascinate users didn't want it. Android, as an open platform, should be open to the users not just the carriers.
It does hurt when you have to root to get rid of it. If Bing was easily uninstalled, no one in the Fascinate forums would have cared.
you realize that you're condemning VZW for cracking down on openness, yet when they took an "open" approach by including a different search option...you're applauding Google for clamping things down...
Of course I'm condemning them. Why shouldn't I? If VZW having openness means I get none, what good does that do me? I'd rather it be the other way round. Obviously that's not going to happen but there should be some reasonable middle ground.
No but it would be OK if Moto were forced to make BLUR a separate element, divorced from the core OS.
Sorry for the long post but I feel it's important for people to think about these kind of issues.
Thanks
Library of Congress makes jailbreaking legal for fair use | Electronista
Someone please explain to me how rooting, is any different then 'jailbreaking' on the iphone. Which as I posted has already been ruled legal by congress.
gmenfan83
Android Expert
lol its so funny you bring this up,with that link ,,,for the past few nights i have been working on an essay for my class covering this topic.The root falls under the same guidlines this was just outlined for the jailbreak
Metfanant
Android Expert
which would have to be approved before it was released...
the prescedent is that Google themselves are saying that they can veto anything...and new HTC phones are being released with locked bootloaders...that means that this is OK in Google's eyes...
no, im not assuming that at all...but i am saying that this stance came before Moto has released Gingerbread to the public for ANY phone...future phones...
do you think Moto/VZW would be implementing these things (like P3 says they are) if Google said they couldn't do it?
so what you're saying is you want those that prefer the UI skins to have to suffer potential performance hits because they are running an app, that will presumably require more resources (think about having the stock launcher and ADW, LPP, or Go running at the same time) on top of the stock OS??...how fair is that??
advertising money isn't enough?...you don't think Google has benefited from the HUGE Droid Does push by VZW/Moto??...
some might have wanted it...so why should Google be able to deny it?...
the problem with Google's stance is that its no longer open to ANYONE...not the manufacturers, not the carriers, not the consumers...
how does it hurt?
What?...lol...its not open to VZW either...everything now has to be approved by Google...which means that it is Google that chooses what is right, and wrong to come on our phones...that is completely opposite of the definition of open source...
I do not see how you can condemn VZW for locking things down...and then watch Google do the same thing and applaud it...
again, potentially causing a performance penalty to those that like the way Blur looks, or the widgets that come with it?
i agree its very important for people to think about these things...
rooting is NO different than jailbreaking...but that doesn't mean Moto/HTC/Samsung has to just allow you to do it...
all it means is that they can't sue you for doing it, or you can't go to jail for doing it...but they can do whatever they want to make it as hard as possible (impossible) to do it...however if someone breaks their security and roots it...they can't be punished for it...
although...im not sure if a carrier could deny service to a rooted device or not...
Fabolous
Superuser
I just want to add that the operating system (Android) is open source, but Google's apps (Gmail, Market, Maps, etc.) are NOT, and not coincidentally, those are the major apps that make up a lot of Android's appeal.
Since manufacturers have to have Google's approval to use those apps, that's how Google will control them. So technically the operating system is quite open source. Manufacturers can do whatever they want with it, but if they do something Google doesn't like, they won't have access to Google's proprietary apps, meaning the device will fail.
Just thought that the distinction should be made. It's still kind of shady though.
I'm also concerned where the Nexus line will go to next, because obviously VZW had many chances (and even was going to release the N1, but instead opted to only release the DI), and if the AT&T-Mobile deal goes through...idk what will happen, as T-Mobile was Google's US partner for the first two devices.
But P3 did slip up something about "dev devices", and I'm hoping he's referring to VZW
Since manufacturers have to have Google's approval to use those apps, that's how Google will control them. So technically the operating system is quite open source. Manufacturers can do whatever they want with it, but if they do something Google doesn't like, they won't have access to Google's proprietary apps, meaning the device will fail.
Just thought that the distinction should be made. It's still kind of shady though.
I'm also concerned where the Nexus line will go to next, because obviously VZW had many chances (and even was going to release the N1, but instead opted to only release the DI), and if the AT&T-Mobile deal goes through...idk what will happen, as T-Mobile was Google's US partner for the first two devices.
But P3 did slip up something about "dev devices", and I'm hoping he's referring to VZW
yawdapaah
Android Expert
Ok metfan, you can't apply that argument to GB or any current releases/devices. OEMs are being asked to do this going forward. If Google approves this stuff for future OS releases then I'll complain then. The new agreement is for HC and beyond.
There is no proof that BLUR would be any slower. The reason we can use LPP is because it's an app just like blur launcher.
Also, you couldnt root and were stuck with bing I think that'd hurt pretty bad for me.
@Aggie: they can't stop your service; that would be a beach of contact. The can, however, throttle as much as they wish.
There is no proof that BLUR would be any slower. The reason we can use LPP is because it's an app just like blur launcher.
Also, you couldnt root and were stuck with bing I think that'd hurt pretty bad for me.
@Aggie: they can't stop your service; that would be a beach of contact. The can, however, throttle as much as they wish.
colchiro
Extreme Android User
CaucasionJ
Well-Known Member
I think faber will be ghosting this forum....you cant turn your back that easy its like tying to go "cold turkey " with cigarettes. I was always told that rules were made to be broken so bring on more leaked updates im going to be hungry after this gingerbread
Metfanant
Android Expert
why? because it doesn't fit your argument? or because it allows you to still praise Google?...I hate to be so blunt, but it seems like people are twisting and turning, and bending over backwards to try and play this like Google is defending the consumer and is against all these other evil companies....
when i hate to be the one to break it to you...but they are not...
they will...because they want fat wallets...
it makes sense that the more resources you use, and the less you have to dedicate to other apps the worse performance will be...
using your logic...why do we all have a fascination with removing "bloat?" it doesn't really make our phones perform better...but we do it anyway to keep resource usage at a minimum...
i just don't see why its ok for Google to impose things on people, but not others...
Fascinate users could not use Google Search at all??...it was Bing or nothing?...
they could certainly write it into future contracts...
Ok. So here's what I'm confused about. I just read the updated version of p3droid's post and he states that the way you'll be tracked is when you don't accept the ota update. So here's my question : my wife got an ota. Update once on her eris that severely f@cked it up. She had all sorts of problems with it. She wasn't rooted but was leary the next time one was pushed out. So if p3droid is correct and she decided not to take one of their bs updates, she would be considered rooted? Wtf!
gmenfan83
Android Expert
no because eventually the update would be forced on to her device.
when we run roms or delete bloat etc they cant even push the ota since it wont go through and thats one way they can tell
bcltoys
Android Enthusiast
I truly dont have a clue to whats going on with my phone today but twice it seemed like I was not in control of it I flashed back to stock deleted root apps because for the last week phone has been going crazy I think i'm back to the ota but for some reason clockwork is still there this phone has acted at times crazy like this since day one browser would stick and I would had to FR.
yawdapaah
Android Expert
@Metfanant:
Because it's unfair. I'm not praising Google or anything. They made a statement 4 DAYS AGO. By that time, Moto's GB rom had already been rejected by VZW. It's not logical to apply that statement to BLUR or the Thunderbolt or anything being released at this point. If Honeycomb comes out and the same crap happens, I'll happy enough to condemn Google at that point. If you want Google to apply the new stance to something they've released already to the manufacturers, nothing I say will make you happy. Sorry.
The bloat removal does improve our phones because, by definition, it frees up resources. That allows your phone to run faster. The problem with Blur is that there are tons of services that run independent of the app itself. It's those services that eat up processing cycles, memory, and battery life; that's why we remove blur bloat (if I'm wrong someone please correct me). I don't care if those apps, services come bundled with the OS, just let me remove them without root if you won't let me root. WP7 lets you remove all carrier installed bloat.
It's very easy to find out the extent people had to go to, to use Google Search (prior to the froyo update and we know how long that took):
Samsung Fascinate Can Google Search Instead of Bing Now [Despite Previous Reports, Google Search Is Available on the Fascinate Right Now; Here?s How You Do It]
Note that you need root to do that.
I want Google to impose regulations on these OEMS. If they feel it's detrimental to your OS, make them change it. These OEMs and carriers are getting away with too much.
Because it's unfair. I'm not praising Google or anything. They made a statement 4 DAYS AGO. By that time, Moto's GB rom had already been rejected by VZW. It's not logical to apply that statement to BLUR or the Thunderbolt or anything being released at this point. If Honeycomb comes out and the same crap happens, I'll happy enough to condemn Google at that point. If you want Google to apply the new stance to something they've released already to the manufacturers, nothing I say will make you happy. Sorry.
The bloat removal does improve our phones because, by definition, it frees up resources. That allows your phone to run faster. The problem with Blur is that there are tons of services that run independent of the app itself. It's those services that eat up processing cycles, memory, and battery life; that's why we remove blur bloat (if I'm wrong someone please correct me). I don't care if those apps, services come bundled with the OS, just let me remove them without root if you won't let me root. WP7 lets you remove all carrier installed bloat.
It's very easy to find out the extent people had to go to, to use Google Search (prior to the froyo update and we know how long that took):
Samsung Fascinate Can Google Search Instead of Bing Now [Despite Previous Reports, Google Search Is Available on the Fascinate Right Now; Here?s How You Do It]
Note that you need root to do that.
I want Google to impose regulations on these OEMS. If they feel it's detrimental to your OS, make them change it. These OEMs and carriers are getting away with too much.
Metfanant
Android Expert
You're assuming that Google was not already operating under this policy previously...it says that some OEM's had already been in contact with the justice department...that doesn't happen in a couple days time...that means OEM's have been dealing with these policies for some time...contact the justice department is not going to be the first course of action...
As for bloat...who is to say that VZW didn't sign some agreement with a company to offset the cost of subsidizing the phone?...what if that bloatware is the reason that VZW can offer th device for cheaper??...
You mention how removing the bloat frees up resources and increases performance...I would say the same thing about being forced to run a second launcher to have the blurfeatures that I like
As for google imposing restrictions...great...but who decideswhat I want??...what about what I think is best??...
What about the article claiming Google plays favorites? Making sure certain OEMs have access to things first?...that is not open OR consumer friendly...
Im all for a better experience...and if google wants to achieve iOS levels of performance and reliability, then they need to impose stricter standards...BUT...don't clamp down and try to pass it off to me as open source and consumer friendly...
Google is just as greedy as anyone else...and if they were as open and consumer friendly as they and some others would want us to believe...they would have squashed the locking down by OEMs and carriers long ago...
Outlaw71
Android Expert
My God, what are you spreading all this misinformation about Google?
They are neck deep in all of this...
They have to ok everything going into Android devices...
They have no choice but to do as Verizon/Moto says or they'll lose money...
Seriously, where are you getting this stuff?
None of that nonsense even faintly resembles anything anchored in reality. And clearly shows a lack of knowledge about Google as a whole.
Google's suddenly getting thrown under the bus for being a bad guy for wanting to protect their reputation and guard their revenue stream? Gosh I guess I'm a huge asshole too then because I also care about the way people perceive me, and I take an active interest in my income.
We should clear up one point before we go any further... Google makes zero dollars from the licensing of Android. Android is a side project of theirs, one of hundreds of side projects Google is involved in. 97% of Googles revenue comes from advertisers. Google knows what they're doing, they were one of the biggest companies on the planet long before they released Android. And they still will be even if they shut down Android tonight!
Yes they could pull the plug on the whole thing and wouldn't blink an eye. Insinuating that they are somehow intimidated by Verizon or Motorola is absolutely hilarious. They make money off of every OS, off of every OEM and every carrier across the globe. Unless you can name me one that doesn't offer it's customers access to YouTube, access to Gmail, or the use of the Google search engine?
Their fingers are in everything. Android does help them widen their scope somewhat over the mobile wed. But it absolutely is not essential for their company to continue it's worldwide dominance over world wide web advertising. Once you understand that you'll also be able to grasp the idea that nothing in P3's blog about this spyware being implemented by Verizon has anything to do with Google. Google's been tracking is since day zero, but not for Verizon or any other carriers sake. They track us for their advertisers.
If Verizon wants to track us to SUPPOSEDLY throttle back our internet usage, that directly effects Googles income stream, so why in the **** would they be helping them with that? Ask yourself why they would chose to shoot themselves in the foot like that before you accuse them of such a preposterous notion.
Google wants us online all day everyday. Android has helped explode smartphone usage everywhere. More smartphones means more people online, means more revenue for Google. Google offers FREE wifi service in their headquarters home town of Mountainview, California. It was going to start spreading that free service around the country, starting with San Fransisco until the other major internet companies took them to court and stopped them, claiming that their 'free' service was unfair because they couldn't compete with it.
Name me another company that's been taken to court for trying to give a service away for FREE! Now then, you want to slam a company like that go right ahead. But those of us who respect the example they have led by in hundreds of other situations won't stand by and listen silently. Especially when the charges are so blatantly fraudulent.
Google wants to protect Android from being ruined by some. How about we wait until they flex this muscle at least once to see how they use it before we judge them for it.
......oh and they certainly didn't have anything to do with the locked bootloader on HTC's last few devices. If they did, then why would HTC have given out the keys to unlock them just days later?
yawdapaah
Android Expert
Thank you Outlaw. I couldn't have (and didn't) said that any better. I'd given up already at that point.
The way I see it, Google's the only recourse we have left. That in itself is a little sad but I'll take whatever we can get. My next phone will be a Nexus or whoever is receptive of our community.
The way I see it, Google's the only recourse we have left. That in itself is a little sad but I'll take whatever we can get. My next phone will be a Nexus or whoever is receptive of our community.
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