free health care

[Thechidz]

It gets down to what you think the relationship should be between government and the governed.

Over there in the UK, you are subjects. Here in the U.S. we are citizens.

You're essentially slaves to your government. You let your government tell you what to do, and you do it; and you expect your government to take care of you.

Here, in the U.S., government exists to serve us, the people, and not the other way around, as over there in the UK; and we expect to be able to take care of ourselves without relying on our nanny-state government too take care of us.


Really, this all gets down to the exact reason why, more than two centuries ago, my ancestors kicked your ancestors' asses out of our country. It seems that every so often, one of you brits feels a need to tell us how to run our country, and in so doing, reminds us why it is we kicked you out of our country in the first place.

well that we be nice if people could actually take care of themselves... but they can't.

As far as our ancestors kicking his ancestors asses... give me a break. You obviously choose to ignore the enormous help we received from the French, without which we'd be the queen's subjects too

Also, your perception of slavery is skewed beyond belief. The working poor in the US are subject to far worse "slave" conditions than the working poor in the UK

 

[Gmash]

Last time I checked, the UK had an elected government. You realise the monarchy is mainly symbolic these days, right?

 

[A.Nonymous]

well that we be nice if people could actually take care of themselves... but they can't.

Why can't they? Please tell me why a healthy, able-bodied person can't take care of themselves?

 

[A.Nonymous]

Last time I checked, the UK had an elected government. You realise the monarchy is mainly symbolic these days, right?

I think he may be talking more about a mindset than what the reality is. I think, and may be completely wrong, that he's saying the UK empowers a government to take care of them. The US empowers a government to serve them.

 

[ItnStln511]

If an ID were required people that are here illegally wouldn't be able to vote illegally so that they could keep getting their benefits.

What

 

[SiempreTuna]

No, a lot of the crap spewed at Bush was complete and total fiction. Look at Clinton the right beat up on him too the same way they're beating up on Obama. It's the same thing. Whomever happens to be in power the other party is going to hate them no matter what.

Err .. Clinton was another Democrat baselessly (as it turned out, after the GOP had wasted tens - maybe hundreds - of millions of tax payer dollars) attacked by the Republicans. It's the same thing in so far as it's another example of Republican lies and distortion.

The mainstream right isn't rambling about death panels and birtherism, etc.....

Actually, they were brought up by people standing to be the republican presidential candidate - it doesn't get a lot more mainstream than that.

Yes, voter fraud, millions of people that vote for a living, and the military not being allowed to vote is the only reason Obama was elected

Complete and utter balloney.

There simply are not "millions": there were actually 40. And that's across MULTIPLE federal elections:

"Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study"

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376

The real election-related fraud this millenium has been republicans disenfranchising people they suspect might vote democrat. That is the real "crime".

If they weren't liberal they would be all over Obama for being guilty of dereliction of duty as Commander in Chief for Bengazi

So Obama is guilty of dereliction because he didn't personally intervene to override a decision made by the responsible department?

Really?

It's not a scandal, it's not even a half decent story!

Plus, I don't recall anyone accusing Bush of dereliction of duty when he had 911 on his watch. Bengazai was grim, don't get me wrong, but I think 911 was a little bit more serious.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Again, just a sign of the problem. Everyone party A attacks is a saint who is persecuted without cause. Everyone party B attacks deserves it and every critique made is legitimate and well deserved. That is the problem.

 

[chrlswltrs]

So Obama is guilty of dereliction because he didn't personally intervene to override a decision made by the responsible department?

Really?

It's not a scandal, it's not even a half decent story!

Plus, I don't recall anyone accusing Bush of dereliction of duty when he had 911 on his watch. Bengazai was grim, don't get me wrong, but I think 911 was a little bit more serious.

Bush took action, right or wrong he made a decision.

Obama was told what was happening, then went to bed so he could be rested for his campaign stop the next day. He didn't bother to get updates, he didn't take action, he just plain didn't care that Americans were being attacked on American soil (yes, embassies are considered the sovereign soil of the country they belong to). That was the under oath testimony before Congress by the Defense Secretary. That is dereliction of duty, plain and simple.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Why can't they? Please tell me why a healthy, able-bodied person can't take care of themselves?

Perhaps they were not lucky enough to receive the intelligence, stability and good upbringing you did.

Other people's shoes and such.

It gets down to what you think the relationship should be between government and the governed.

Over there in the UK, you are subjects. Here in the U.S. we are citizens.

You're essentially slaves to your government. You let your government tell you what to do, and you do it; and you expect your government to take care of you.

Here, in the U.S., government exists to serve us, the people, and not the other way around, as over there in the UK; and we expect to be able to take care of ourselves without relying on our nanny-state government too take care of us.


Really, this all gets down to the exact reason why, more than two centuries ago, my ancestors kicked your ancestors' asses out of our country. It seems that every so often, one of you brits feels a need to tell us how to run our country, and in so doing, reminds us why it is we kicked you out of our country in the first place.

I'll take the ceremonial Queen over the American system, thanks.

I think he may be talking more about a mindset than what the reality is. I think, and may be completely wrong, that he's saying the UK empowers a government to take care of them. The US empowers a government to serve them.

Unfortunately for Blaylock, the British Isles are a bastion of neo-liberalism and low government spending. Perhaps Denmark, a constitutional monarchy with 50% government spending/GDP, would have been a better example for him to use.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Perhaps they were not lucky enough to receive the intelligence, stability and good upbringing you did.

I don't consider myself "lucky". I was given certain genetics at birth, but I don't know that I'm more fortunate than anyone else in this regard. I've tested slightly above average in IQ tests, but there are certainly people out there who are more intelligent than I am. I tend to be nearly completely socially inept and awkward. There are tons of people out there who may be less intelligent than I IQ wise, but run circles around me in the social department. Not gonna lie, I envy them greatly and there have been many, many, many times when I would gladly trade a few IQ points for some social skills.

Stability growing up? Depends on how you define it. I grew up in a home with an abusive father who emotionally abused both me and my sister our entire childhood and even into adulthood. Certainly there are people out there who grew up in worse environments than I and those who grew up in far better environments than I. I don't consider myself "lucky" though. This is the hand that life dealt me. What I do with it is entirely on me and not on anyone else.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I'll take the ceremonial Queen over the American system, thanks.

Fair enough. Just keep it in your own country, on your side of the ocean. We do not need nor want it here in the civilized part of the world. Don't tell us how to run our country, and we won't tell you how to run yours.

 

[Gmash]

Fair enough. Just keep it in your own country, on your side of the ocean. We do not need nor want it here in the civilized part of the world. Don't tell us how to run our country, and we won't tell you how to run yours.

Grow up. This is an open discussion. Anybody can make whatever comments they want. If you can't handle it, stop reading.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Unfortunately for Blaylock, the British Isles are a bastion of neo-liberalism and low government spending. Perhaps Denmark, a constitutional monarchy with 50% government spending/GDP, would have been a better example for him to use.

Again, I think he's talking about the mindset. I haven't been to the UK in decades so I can't speak to the mindset there. Here we are of the opinion that government exists to serve the people, not to keep them.

 

[Slug]

As noted previously, this is an public discussion forum and AF has a huge global membership. All members have an equal right to contribute to a topic.

 

[SiempreTuna]

Bush took action, right or wrong he made a decision.

Err .. wrong again!

After 911, Bush jumped on Airforce 1 and went home for dinner! He was AWOL the entire day, not returning to DC until 7pm - that's what? 10 hours after the towers went down? When a secret service man had the audacity to suggest Bush really ought to head to DC earlier, Bush tore him a new one.

Look it up.

Obama was told what was happening, then went to bed so he could be rested for his campaign stop the next day. He didn't bother to get updates, he didn't take action, he just plain didn't care that Americans were being attacked on American soil (yes, embassies are considered the sovereign soil of the country they belong to). That was the under oath testimony before Congress by the Defense Secretary. That is dereliction of duty, plain and simple.

Ya think because there were people with the right expertise who were looking after the issue?

If the president had to stay up every time there was an emergency anywere in the world, he'd never sleep.

It's a non-story. Get over it.

 

[chrlswltrs]

I can't read any more of this thread. It started as a debate about healthcare, how it isn't free, Obamacare punishes millions to benefit a few, and how it will bankrupt America even quicker. Now it has turned into people drunk on Obama's Kool aid just posting nonsense and ignoring facts. I'm unsubscribing.

Like I said things are going to have to stay on the current course and get a lot worse before people wake up. Hope all the Obama supporters enjoy their higher taxes and/or fines though...

 

[Gmash]

I'm not sure where the "people are going to be shocked when it's not free" argument keeps coming from. Isn't the most publicized, most controversial part of the law the requirement for people to BUY insurance?

 

[Bob Maxey]

I really am interested in these aliens you keep mentioning...... Can an alien be illegal, not like they would have a passport if they are from another world!

Oh you mean immigrants.....maybe say that then, especially as I'm sure many of them will actually be refugees, who sought refuge legally....if someone is in the country illegally, then they are unable to gain benefits, these people are the ones likely working for a pittance in restaurants etc, keeping away from any kind of government scheme etc for fear of deportation!

Anyone in this country without legal authority is illegal. If they are from another country, they are aliens. Nothing to do with little green men from Pluto.

We are talking about people that cross the border illegally.

An immigrant is a different thing. Millions arrived here as immigrants and they did so legally.

I suggest Dictionary.com - Free Online English Dictionary for all of your defining needs..

 

[SiempreTuna]

Bob's right 'bout that.

 

[rpstrongbad]

Nothing is ever free

 

[ItnStln511]

Complete and utter balloney.

There simply are not "millions": there were actually 40. And that's across MULTIPLE federal elections:

"Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study"
[FONT=&quot]http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376[/FONT]

Indicted is the key word here. This does not mean that there were only forty counts of voter fraud. This just means that forty were found and indicted.

The real election-related fraud this millenium has been republicans disenfranchising people they suspect might vote democrat. That is the real "crime".

So when the Democrats do the same to the Republicans that’s acceptable, right? That is exactly what you’re saying.

So Obama is guilty of dereliction because he didn't personally intervene to override a decision made by the responsible department?

Yes!

Plus, I don't recall anyone accusing Bush of dereliction of duty when he had 911 on his watch. Bengazai was grim, don't get me wrong, but I think 911 was a little bit more serious.

No, they just accused him of masterminding the whole incident…

Again, just a sign of the problem. Everyone party A attacks is a saint who is persecuted without cause. Everyone party B attacks deserves it and every critique made is legitimate and well deserved. That is the problem.

It’s politics. The Democrats can say what they want, but the Republicans are called racist if they do the same.

Bush took action, right or wrong he made a decision.

Thankfully he had the balls to do something about it.

Obama was told what was happening, then went to bed so he could be rested for his campaign stop the next day. He didn't bother to get updates, he didn't take action, he just plain didn't care that Americans were being attacked on American soil (yes, embassies are considered the sovereign soil of the country they belong to). That was the under oath testimony before Congress by the Defense Secretary. That is dereliction of duty, plain and simple.

This I didn’t know. How did he manage to get reelected with this scandal happening during his presidency?

Err .. wrong again!

No, chrlswltrs is very right.

After 911, Bush jumped on Airforce 1 and went home for dinner! He was AWOL the entire day, not returning to DC until 7pm - that's what? 10 hours after the towers went down? When a secret service man had the audacity to suggest Bush really ought to head to DC earlier, Bush tore him a new one.

First off, it is “Air Force One.” If you are going to say that Bush was wrong for not going to the epicenter of the attacks, then you’re not as intelligent as you think. As I recall, United 93 was headed for the White House, but I could be mistaken. Bush was very smart for not returning to DC, as the area was hell to get through that day, I lived in that area at the time. Also, the Secret Service agent had no rights to tell Bush to get back to DC. I doubt this actually happened, as I am sure the Secret Service did NOT want him in DC anyway. Common sense should tell you to GET AS FAR AWAY FROM THE PROBLEM AS POSSIBLE! You wouldn’t run into a burning building after all, would you?

It's a non-story. Get over it.

You’re right. If there was a Republican president, then it would be a story, and you would be demanding his impeachment.

I can't read any more of this thread. It started as a debate about healthcare, how it isn't free, Obamacare punishes millions to benefit a few, and how it will bankrupt America even quicker. Now it has turned into people drunk on Obama's Kool aid just posting nonsense and ignoring facts. I'm unsubscribing.

You are so right!

Like I said things are going to have to stay on the current course and get a lot worse before people wake up. Hope all the Obama supporters enjoy their higher taxes and/or fines though...

As do I.

I'm not sure where the "people are going to be shocked when it's not free" argument keeps coming from. Isn't the most publicized, most controversial part of the law the requirement for people to BUY insurance?

They probably think it’ll be just another government handout.

Anyone in this country without legal authority is illegal.

Then why is nothing being done about them.

An immigrant is a different thing. Millions arrived here as immigrants and they did so legally.

I guess some people don’t know the difference the word “illegal” makes.

Nothing is ever free

True.

 

[SiempreTuna]

Indicted is the key word here. This does not mean that there were only forty counts of voter fraud. This just means that forty were found and indicted.

So you maintain that there were miilions who were not indicted? Even if there were 100 or a 1000 times more case than were indicted - which there were NOT - it still comes nowhere near "millions". Not even in the same ballpark.

It's yet another right wing fantasy.

So when the Democrats do the same to the Republicans that’s acceptable, right? That is exactly what you’re saying.

No, it would definitely would not be.

If it had happened, it would be just as wrong.

Thing is: at least not in the last 30 years, it hasn't happened.

No, they just accused him of masterminding the whole incident

No mainstream democrat has ever suggested anything of the sort.

Mainstream republicans - the last presidential candidate but one - have made this ridiculous assertion about Obama.

It’s politics. The Democrats can say what they want, but the Republicans are called racist if they do the same

If the democrats are racist, they should be called on it.

By the same argument, the GOP should be called on it when they're racist.

The GOP gets called on it a lot. You may come to your own conclusions.

First off, it is “Air Force One.”

I stand corrected

If you are going to say that Bush was wrong for not going to the epicenter of the attacks, then you’re not as intelligent as you think. As I recall, United 93 was headed for the White House, but I could be mistaken. Bush was very smart for not returning to DC, as the area was hell to get through that day, I lived in that area at the time. Also, the Secret Service agent had no rights to tell Bush to get back to DC. I doubt this actually happened, as I am sure the Secret Service did NOT want him in DC anyway. Common sense should tell you to GET AS FAR AWAY FROM THE PROBLEM AS POSSIBLE! You wouldn’t run into a burning building after all, would you?

Instead he should go home for dinner ..?

Guess that's so much better than sleeping. At night.

You’re right. If there was a Republican president, then it would be a story, and you would be demanding his impeachment

Nope. I'm not a conspiracy nut. I understand that horrible things happen that even presidents can't conrol.

Like 9/11.

Bush (along with Blair and both of their cabinets) belong in front of a war crimes tribunal. Nothing to do with 9/11, rather for waging an illegal, aggressive war against a sovereign country, Iraq. The charge on which dozens were convicted at Nuremburg.

 

[sntaylor]

use, I'd have said immigrant rather than alien.But like I said, Bob corrected me!

ord

 

[ElasticNinja]

Think you'll find I h.Personally I had found it to be an incorrect terminology because it's not wording I would use, I'd have said immigrant rather than alien.But like I said, Bob corrected me!

use, I'd have said immigrant rather than alien.But like I said, Bob corrected me!

.I have also seen racist banded about a lot, and until recently(I can't remember what thread) I had never seen anyone suggesting anything about republicans being racist except you....I had seen reference to racism, or that certain comments appeared very racist, but it was always you that seemed to have a bone to pick about it!

The thing is, aliens are illegal immigrants as such.

The guy from Edinburgh who moved down the road a few hundred kilometres is an immigrant.

 

[ItnStln511]

So you maintain that there were miilions who were not indicted.

Indicted means that they were formally accused and brought to trial. You might want to familiarize yourself with the words you