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God or No God?

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Socrat3s

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I'm pretty much agnostic. My view point is you can't prove that a god exist, and you can't prove he doesn't .It's like trying to prove gravity is really there. That's why it's called the "theory of gravity. " Maybe a bad example, but science has so much more going for it then relegion and the only answer is "God did it". How was the earth created? "god did it". Instead of there was a process of mass, and energy , that eventually exploded and created our universe

I know these debates can get nasty so keep clean... Your view points and opinions are welcome.:cool:
 
Once we started becoming beings of abstract thought asking questions of why and wherefore the scene for the belief in higher powers was set. To live together in a group is quite hard so if everyone believes in a common thing it makes life easier. Those best adapted to believing survived best, so the 'belief gene' got selected out as most fit. This went on for as long as we are here so it is very deeply rooted. Now the questions we have always had are being answered with science, and you see in countries with a high level of education that the belief in deities is deminishing.

There is no god,gods or mystical events. But as of yet the 'belief gene' is still stronger in most than the 'rational gene' so not believing is still the odd one out.

And people who believe see their god as part of the family so they feel highly offended if you say their god does not excist. They find those saying there is no god deluded,misguided and offensive.
 
Gravitational theory is not an effort to prove it exists. Its existence is known. The theories are an effort to understand how it works and its relationship with other forces in nature/the universe.

Gods and creation theory, however, are efforts to prove something's existence: whether or not he/she/it/they really do exist.

Huge difference. Poor analogy. ;)
 
And then there's the concept of a falsifiable hypothesis. For example:

"God does not exist" is falsifiable because all you have to do is find one instance of God existing to falsify the hypothesis.

"God exists" is not a falsifiable hypothesis because you could find tons of instances of God not existing and still not be able to disprove that God exists.

If a hypothesis is not falsifiable, it is by definition not scientific. Therefore, science will never consider whether God exists. It will only consider that He doesn't exist. But if an instance of God existing is ever found, science would have no problem embracing it. Especially if the evidence is reproducible by all.

It should be noted that a falsifiable hypothesis does not imply that the hypothesis is false. Rather, it means that it's possible from a logical standpoint to falsify the hypothesis.

Science is always open to challenges and skepticism. That is why science uses the word "theory" over "law." Our understanding of any given property is constantly being refined and fine-tuned. To say something is law would imply that its set in stone, and science is open-minded enough to acknowledge that our understanding is never completely set in stone.
 
Remeniz said:
I fully respect ones beliefs and as such would not influence them in anyway but I am a firm believer in science and evolution.
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Definitely my thoughts as well. I'm a firm believer in science, and evolution.
 
julianne791 said:
I believe in God, have since 2005. Was an atheist before and now a Christian but I don't force my belief on others as everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want.
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May I ask what made you change your stance?
 
Socrat3s said:
I'm pretty much agnostic. My view point is you can't prove that a god exist, and you can't prove he doesn't .It's like trying to prove gravity is really there. That's why it's called the "theory of gravity. " Maybe a bad example, but science has so much more going for it then relegion and the only answer is "God did it". How was the earth created? "god did it". Instead of there was a process of mass, and energy , that eventually exploded and created our universe

I know these debates can get nasty so keep clean... Your view points and opinions are welcome.:cool:
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This is kind of off topic, but one of my little pet peeves is people who claim that science hasn't proven something because it's just a "theory". There is a huge difference in the way science defines a theory and the way the word is used in common vernacular. A scientific theory has been proven and is widely accepted as fact.
 
Was raised as a Catholic. Became atheist when I was 15; I'm 19 now, and my stance towards the existence of a god hasn't changed.
 
God exists. Period. End of subject. Did he/she create the world in 7 days and all that jazz, no. But he/she does exist.

The argument around what god did, is one for the ages and personally is just a different then the pronunciation of words.

But if you walk down the street and ask 4 questions.

1.) Is this color aqua-marine green? (holding up a aqua-marine green card.) 2.5% of the population will say that aqua-marine green does not exist and there is nothing you can do to prove it to them.

2.) Is it warm? (lets say 70 degrees f.) About 60% of the population of the world will say it is cold. About 20% of the populations will say it is just right. About 20% will say it is warm. Because where you come from determines how you feel. Is 20% of the population correct, or is 80% wrong?

3.)If you hand a cup of coffee/tea/whatever to a person that has 1/8 gram of sugar in it. 75% of the people you hand it to will say there is no sugar in the drink. 25% will say there is some sugar in the drank. Why? 25% of the population is super tasters, they can taste the sugar. If 75% says there is not sugar in the coffee, is there sugar in the coffee?

4.) Is there a god? 85% of the world will say there is a god. 15% will say there is not a god. Does that mean that 85% of the world is perceiving something that the other 15% can not. Or does that mean we have a progressive culture that pushes ideas on to other people. Like the concepts of liberty, justices, and environmentalism.

The answer is pretty clear. God has to exist, for those that believe in them. For those that do not, god is a social concept that is about as useful as a bag of hammers.

But god does exist.
 
A.Nonymous said:
This is kind of off topic, but one of my little pet peeves is people who claim that science hasn't proven something because it's just a "theory". There is a huge difference in the way science defines a theory and the way the word is used in common vernacular. A scientific theory has been proven and is widely accepted as fact.
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What I don't understand is why people want science to prove there is a God or want to beat up science by showing that it can't prove that. Or show that faith has a shortfall because it has no mass or thermal components.

I'm honestly not sure, but I think believing in God has something to do with forming ideas about the nature of your existence in metaphysical terms (why are we here) and to provide a compass for moral behavior and maybe just to express a faith about the nature of all things.

What I am sure about is that science is not about answering any of that. Science is about how things - like say, energy and matter, in combination or separately - work and why they work that way and so forth.

And science is largely practiced by scientists. So asking something of science is asking something of scientists.

So - to me, and this is just my personal opinion, not intended to offend anyone, merely intended to really illustrate my point - asking a scientist to engage in proofs regarding God is much like going into your mechanic's garage and asking when your pizza will be done. And vice versa.

I think it's a big universe and there's plenty of room for both pizzerias and mechanics, if you get my meaning.
 
Remeniz said:
I fully respect ones beliefs and as such would not influence them in anyway but I am a firm believer in science and evolution.
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There are theists who have an understanding of science, etc, and also believe in a god. As a matter of fact, evolution is now being referred to by some Christian clergy, Catholics included, as "God's tools for making the world."

However, as far as human beings are concerned, along with the notion of an immortal soul, it becomes a bit more complicated among those clergy. Some put forth the notion that God waited until His evolution on Earth had advanced to a point that the human soul could be installed in one of the evolved creatures, which is named "Adam" in some legends and writings. The rest of us, being Adam's offspring, inherited the immortal soul.

Others are in agreement with that except for the "Adam" story, and postulate that God did put a soul in an evolved being somewhere along the ape to pre-human to human line, but that he did that to scores of them simultaneously all over the Earth.

And then of course there's the goofy Bible story about instant creation of a guy in a real nice garden. :D
 
Just for what it's worth, maybe nothing -


During a physics lecture, an older woman stood up during the question and answer period and expressed her true beliefs (from her culture), proclaiming, "I don't care about your fancy ideas, the universe is being carried on a turtle's back!"

Patiently, the physicist laid his counter-point, "Yes, but what is the turtle standing on?"

Non-plussed, she shot right back, "You think you're clever but you can't fool me, young man. It's turtles, all the way down!"

(That's a true story, will provide references if asked.)

My only points are that views with a certain consistency seem best to me, that such consistencies exist in the most surprising forms, and that exchanging ideas is often how we get anywhere at all.
 
Socrat3s said:
I'm pretty much agnostic.
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Bertram Russell was arrested and required to answer as to his religion by his jailer.

"Agnostic," Russell explained.

The jailer was perplexed for a few moments, then broke into a smile and said, "Well, so long as we all worship the same God in the end, that's all that matters, right?"

Thousands of years ago there was a competition of ideas and ultimately through means including many wars, Near Middle Eastern monotheism pretty much won out.

Another odd thing to me is that for a society supposedly founded on the principles of religious freedom and tolerance is that today, when discussion of God occurs, only the God referred to by emerging societies from the Near Middle East from thousands of years ago seems to be the acceptable translation for the word and the topic.

I'll do until a scientist comes along. Before asking me about your pizza, first tell me why it only comes shaped round, with a thin crust and always has anchovies.

Until then, it seems to me that most agnostics are only agnostic about Near Middle Eastern monotheistic views - on competing God views, there seems to be no agnosticism at all.

In which case - Bertram Russell's jailer was exactly correct, more than it may have seemed at first glance.

No personal criticisms intended or implied - just an observation offered as food for thought and/or debate/discussion.
 
It matters not one iota whether or not I believe in "a" god, "the" God or any jealous, angry or merciful supernatural being. What matters is whether or not God believes in me.


"God created man in his own image, and man returned the compliment."

 
I believe in my family, my close friends and even myself, sometimes ;)

I was raised by my parents who had different views on religion. I'm forever grateful for that as it gave me a choice; something everyone should get. All I do is live the best I can without hurting anyone or tell people that they must change their way of thinking (except Apple users of course ;-) ). Trying to change someone will only put their backs up and cause more harm than good. If what you believe in works for you that is fantastic.

I'm not religious, my wife is yet I still take her to church and attend. I did for a couple of years really try to embrace the faith but it didn't work for me. Too many ideas and questions I enjoy thinking about I had to leave behind. It just wasn't comfortable.
 
Wonder what happened to the Norris, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Indian, etc Gods. Did these Gods not select winning followers ?


Just a few quotes referring to the Judeo-Christian concept of God.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. ~Voltaire

I feel most ministers who claim they've heard God's voice are eating too much pizza before they go to bed at night, and it's really an intestinal disorder, not a revelation. ~Rev. Jerry Falwell

God: The most popular scapegoat for our sins. ~Mark Twain

God is not the name of God, but an opinion about Him. ~Pope Xystus I, The Ring

Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God. Really. ~Lenny Bruce, "Religions Inc.," in The Essential Lenny Bruce, ed. John Cohen, 1967
 
RiverOfIce said:
God exists. Period. End of subject. Did he/she create the world in 7 days and all that jazz, no. But he/she does exist.

The argument around what god did, is one for the ages and personally is just a different then the pronunciation of words.

But if you walk down the street and ask 4 questions.

1.) Is this color aqua-marine green? (holding up a aqua-marine green card.) 2.5% of the population will say that aqua-marine green does not exist and there is nothing you can do to prove it to them.

2.) Is it warm? (lets say 70 degrees f.) About 60% of the population of the world will say it is cold. About 20% of the populations will say it is just right. About 20% will say it is warm. Because where you come from determines how you feel. Is 20% of the population correct, or is 80% wrong?

3.)If you hand a cup of coffee/tea/whatever to a person that has 1/8 gram of sugar in it. 75% of the people you hand it to will say there is no sugar in the drink. 25% will say there is some sugar in the drank. Why? 25% of the population is super tasters, they can taste the sugar. If 75% says there is not sugar in the coffee, is there sugar in the coffee?

4.) Is there a god? 85% of the world will say there is a god. 15% will say there is not a god. Does that mean that 85% of the world is perceiving something that the other 15% can not. Or does that mean we have a progressive culture that pushes ideas on to other people. Like the concepts of liberty, justices, and environmentalism.

The answer is pretty clear. God has to exist, for those that believe in them. For those that do not, god is a social concept that is about as useful as a bag of hammers.

But god does exist.
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forgive me, but I don't understand the logic here. Are you saying that god exists because a certain percentage of the population believes in one??
 
tommy_ed said:
forgive me, but I don't understand the logic here. Are you saying that god exists because a certain percentage of the population believes in one??
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As much as other things in our world that can not be proven to all society. A person that is color blind, will never see the colors they are blind to, so that color does not exist, for them. If they where to argue that they did not exist, you could never prove to them that it did. Because there is zero way for them to directly, or indirectly, detect the color that you are looking at. Even if you produce a hz to visual color, the color produce will never match, what a non color blind person can see.

Let me ask you this question. Does justice exist?
 
RiverOfIce said:
As much as other things in our world that can not be proven to all society. A person that is color blind, will never see the colors they are blind to, so that color does not exist, for them. If they where to argue that they did not exist, you could never prove to them that it did. Because there is zero way for them to directly, or indirectly, detect the color that you are looking at. Even if you produce a hz to visual color, the color produce will never match, what a non color blind person can see.

Let me ask you this question. Does justice exist?
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but at the end of your post you said
RiverOfIce said:
god does exist.
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-your post can also be used as an argument against religion or god, so it's kind of a weak example, no offense.

your logic is almost moot, because it basically states nothing.

and yes justice exists. it's not always served, and not always done so in the best possible manner, but it most certainly exists. That is a very different argument to god vs. no god in my opinion...

but i think i get what you're trying to say: god exists only to those who believe in him/her. correct?
 
Semantics,Semantics, semantics, thats all you two are arguing at this point. ROI, using your logic I could argue just as strongly that the language you are typing doesn't exist and that what your posting is false. :P


With that said God does exist. If it's a thought it exists.

Does God Exist in the sense of some omnipotent being/spectre who created all that we know and see? I don't believe so, I have my own beliefs about that (agnostic with some pagan ideas)
 
RiverOfIce said:
So what is justice?
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The philosophical approach is just plain boring. I can do it too: what is purple? Does anything really exist? Is there right or wrong?

As a kid, I firmly believed in Santa Claus. As my understanding of reality grew, there came a point I realized he was just a fabrication. Along the same lines, horror movies would no longer keep me up at night because I realized it was not real.

I see God in the same way. It all fits the same pattern of psychology. The only difference is that what we know as reality ends at death. And since we don't know what happens after that, we can still hold onto the "Santa" belief without persecution or ridicule. After all, no one can PROVE there's no afterlife.

But again, that goes back to my earlier post about falsifiability. Science is not anti-God. It simply is not in the realm of science to consider it.

So that means science and deism can coexist just fine. Note the word "deism" and not "theism." Clearly, religion and science clash all the time, and historically, science always emerges as holding the truthful/correct viewpoint, and the church has had to back down.

There's no reason why you can't believe in God and believe in the theory of evolution. Actually, as with any science, you don't have to believe it. You can verify it for yourself.

As a scientific-minded person, I don't feel the need to believe that God exists. I'm ok not knowing and just observe. If He reveals Himself to me some day, I might change my stance (or question my sanity). Belief is dangerous; it's harder to change a belief than an idea.
 
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