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God or No God?

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Socrat3s said:
Science proved that we are not the center of the universe and that the sun is.
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I'm sure that's not what you really meant, but I just wanted to set things straight: the Sun isn't the center of the Universe. ;) It's not even the center of the Galaxy (which, according to my understanding of physics, should be a black hole). ;)

I wonder if the Universe even has a center.
 
Socrat3s said:
Cool that you are a scientist and all, but who else to ask? Science has proven many myths wrong from medical, to natural. Science is what can prove that god exist "if anyone can at all" Science proved that we are not the center of the universe and that the sun is. Certain inquisitions should be investigated by who? The priest and ministers who will simply say have faith? No by rational people using rational logic to study irrational things. Simply put religion is irrational. Humans can't grasp the idea of a deity such as "god", so they go to the church, but who do you turn to find the truth? Surely not those who have a firm belief in this being but the ones who use the scientific method to prove or disprove these ideas.

p.s

I don't think no one here can argue that the scientific method isn't accurate. It can be used in real world situations and even mathematics.
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I think the world is a rich and wondrous place and it takes a lifetime to just begin to know what to look for as the right questions, either to understand quality of life or its nature.

I think the universe is so big and wondrous that it takes generations to learn the right questions much less get the answers to appreciate it.

I wouldn't trust scientists to give the proofs you need and the clarity you seek.

I think that's because we're busy with those other things and are liable to give a bad answer at this time.

And very in much in science, it's true that we learn and discover by leaps and bounds and magical moments of light bulbs coming on, and can then take MANY years to find the logic of why it is that what we found worked.

Rationality is a fine thing but it is not the only thing.
 
DaSchmarotzer said:
I wonder if the Universe even has a center.
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Not in the way we imagine most things to have a center (spheres such as a ball or planet, geometrical center of a box or cylinder, etc).

It's expanding from all points outward, not from a center like a balloon or explosion. That's what makes it so hard to assign a mental image to the Big Bang.
 
I apologize, I've proactively deleted a post and a reply quoting it.

It could have been read two ways - and I was tempted to leave it up for its positive interpretation.

But because it did encroach on the issue of theology, against our re-opening ground rules, I've removed it. Nothing personal, just fairly following our ground rules.

Please feel free to re-express the idea and re-post - also ok to PM me or any mod to get help on prior approval of the wording.

Thanks for working with us on this. :) ;)
 
Funny. All these "God prove it" type posts make me wonder why God so dramatically revealed Himself to me. I was anti-Jesus, being born and raised Jewish. Then *bam* revealed. *sigh* I guess I should be very, very thankful, huh?

Can I prove it or Him? No. Do I know Him personally for a fact? Absolutely.

Look at this from my perspective for just a second. Let's say what I am saying is real and indeed true/fact. You'd feel really, really sad for those who don't know Him. I do.

Ok... .feel free to go back to your regularly scheduled programs. Thanks for listening. :)
 
I've been away from these forums for awhile... This thread just reminded me why these are the best forums & the best moderators on the internet. Bravo!

PS.
I believe there is a God. I have a personal belief in Jesus Christ. However, I don't have proof or a reason, instead I have faith. I also believe in Science & what it tells us about the cosmos. I think science & religion are telling the same story, they're just speaking different languages.

A man once told me that anyone can believe something, but faith was acting on it. That you could believe a chair would support your weight by looking at it, but faith was sitting down. Also, if you can agree there is a higher power & agree that that higher power compels mankind to be better people, shouldn't everything else be a personal matter?

In the same way, in this same spirit, I believe there is a God & he compels me to make the world a better place. In doing this, I have a faith that compels me to act on my beliefs by purposefully living to make a positive change in the world. I attempt every day to make everyone's lives around me better because I am part of it. Altruism!

Nobody is perfect, but that's what makes us who we are. That's what I believe, but every man & woman must discover their own answer to this question. Seek and you will find...

Edit: My best friend is Agnostic & we have this conversation a lot. I often will tell him: "Hypothetically lets say, that I'm wrong. Ok? What have I lost by living this way? Nothing. I've gained a life well lived, the respect of people around me, & the comfort in knowing I made the world a better place."
 
I wonder if it is fair to instill in kids a belief in a god before they can form their own opinion.....
Once you have been thuroughly immersed in the belief of some dude watching your every move it is hard to keep an open mind about the whole concept....
 
pucky said:
I wonder if it is fair to instill in kids a belief in a god before they can form their own opinion.....
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Worked for me. :)

My parents have a strong faith, so I was a regular church/sunday school attender up to my early teens. One day I questioned why when I didn't feel the same strength of faith and was told, "Now we know you're old enough to make your own choice."

Do I believe in God? No, but I unerringly believe in others' right to do so.
 
pucky said:
I wonder if it is fair to instill in kids a belief in a god before they can form their own opinion.....
Once you have been thuroughly immersed in the belief of some dude watching your every move it is hard to keep an open mind about the whole concept....
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I was raised in a strict LDS (Mormon, if you don't know what LDS is.) family. Just because my parents decided to instill their beliefs in me when I was young, hasn't stopped me from formulating my own opinion, and thoughts on religion. In fact I believe that it truly helped me decide what was right for me. My parents forced me to go to church every Sunday, to participate in church activities, and they even required me to go to Seminary in High school. I can bet that most of you don't know what seminary is, so I'll explain. It's a class you take in high school which doesn't give you any credits, and is basically a class period that is church in school. Except for the fact that it's not "technically" on school property, and a completely separate building.

Those experiences in my life lead me to research other religions and find out what was right for me. That's when I started realizing that I don't believe, or accept what organized religions do. I can't deny that "god" exists, but I also don't go around saying "god" doesn't exist.

I fully believe that by being a good person, and helping out others it will make me live a happy life. If there is some sort of afterlife, it will be great. But if there isn't I would still be extremely satisfied with what I have accomplished in my lifetime.
 
pucky said:
I wonder if it is fair to instill in kids a belief in a god before they can form their own opinion.....
Once you have been thuroughly immersed in the belief of some dude watching your every move it is hard to keep an open mind about the whole concept....
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We instill the rules of society in kids before they can form their own opinion about them. We instill lots of things in kids before they can have an opinion.
 
pucky said:
I wonder if it is fair to instill in kids a belief in a god before they can form their own opinion.....
Once you have been thuroughly immersed in the belief of some dude watching your every move it is hard to keep an open mind about the whole concept....
Click to expand...


all depends on the extent. If its a matter of bringing them to church and immersing them in the religion and culture early, then thats fine,preferable in most situations. but if its the fear mongering and trying to scare your kids from looking any where else, thats an issue. (how my girlfriend was raised, her family never introduced her to a lot of things outside of what the bible teaches[to the extent that she was raised thinking tattoos turned you into a satan worshipper])
 
i would like to believe there is more to it than just what I can see and prove....


i wounder all the time... is there a GOD.. or some entity that has a bigger plan for it all.


i sure hope so... i want to believe.. still looking for my firm faith.. there has to be!
 
Socrat3s said:
Ok some of you guys went way of base. I'm not talking about the idea of god, theories, etc. I'm merely asking do you all believe in a god? A god that created us, and helps guide us through our lives. A god that will give eternal happiness or eternal hell. Do you believe in the judeo Christian God, you know like Jesus walking on water, that whole type of thing?
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No. Neither do I believe in some fat guy who wears red and lives at the north pole would climb down my chimney and leave presents for me if I'm good.

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It seems that people want to know exactly why the world/universe is the way that it is and/or why certain events occurred. I find that I often hear that people take comfort that a god made things the way they are or that "God" has a plan. People do not like not knowing why things are the way they are. I see people argue in favour of a creator simply because they want the simple explanation rather than hearing the words, "I don't know why." I see many creationists attack evolution or cosmology for its incomplete explanation of events and then give the alternative that "God" made everything in a nice little package.

For me, I have come to accept that the universe is very complex and beyond my understanding or the understanding of everyone who has ever lived. Science and scientists seek to understand the universe and they do science because the universe is not completely understood. If we understood everything about the universe, there would be no need for science. If you look to science to find explanations about everything, you will be very disappointed because there is a great deal no one can truely claim to know. Theorys like Evolution and The Big Bang are still theories that do explain a great many things, but still are incomplete and cannot explain every possible event or observation in great detail. Still they do provide more detailed explanations on many observations than anything I have seen in religion.

I feel no discomfort about not knowing why certain things happen whether it is some observation about the nature of galaxies or some personal tragedy. Some things happen that are simply out of my control. In fact many things happen outside of my control. No one needs to tell me that "God" made these things happen to give me comfort. I haven't felt a need for a god in my life and do not see how believing in a god would satisfy any need I have.
 
I believe there is what is and is not what's not. I believe what I believe and do not believe what I don't. There may be convergence between the two either by design, discovery or coincidence but there is no corollary between them.

I do believe in God*, but not the bearded gentleman in the clouds, the twilight forces lurking in the peat bogs or even the jackal-headed anthropomorph of the ancient kingdom, although the latter would be pretty cool. God to me must be a universal and omnipresent cohesive singularity encompassing all things known and unknown.

*Not "a" god, or "the" god.

Religion is humanity's way of dragging God down to our level and holding him there for our own personal consumption.
 
Stuntman said:
No. Neither do I believe in some fat guy who wears red and lives at the north pole would climb down my chimney and leave presents for me if I'm good.

=========== Added below =========

It seems that people want to know exactly why the world/universe is the way that it is and/or why certain events occurred. I find that I often hear that people take comfort that a god made things the way they are or that "God" has a plan. People do not like not knowing why things are the way they are. I see people argue in favour of a creator simply because they want the simple explanation rather than hearing the words, "I don't know why." I see many creationists attack evolution or cosmology for its incomplete explanation of events and then give the alternative that "God" made everything in a nice little package.

For me, I have come to accept that the universe is very complex and beyond my understanding or the understanding of everyone who has ever lived. Science and scientists seek to understand the universe and they do science because the universe is not completely understood. If we understood everything about the universe, there would be no need for science. If you look to science to find explanations about everything, you will be very disappointed because there is a great deal no one can truely claim to know. Theorys like Evolution and The Big Bang are still theories that do explain a great many things, but still are incomplete and cannot explain every possible event or observation in great detail. Still they do provide more detailed explanations on many observations than anything I have seen in religion.

I feel no discomfort about not knowing why certain things happen whether it is some observation about the nature of galaxies or some personal tragedy. Some things happen that are simply out of my control. In fact many things happen outside of my control. No one needs to tell me that "God" made these things happen to give me comfort. I haven't felt a need for a god in my life and do not see how believing in a god would satisfy any need I have.
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By believing in a god people think they have all the answers and stop asking questions, the very questions that have brought us to where we are now....
 
lunatic59 said:
I do believe in God*, but not the bearded gentleman in the clouds, the twilight forces lurking in the peat bogs or even the jackal-headed anthropomorph of the ancient kingdom, although the latter would be pretty cool. God to me must be a universal and omnipresent cohesive singularity encompassing all things known and unknown.
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so is this entity you believe in the creator of the universe, the controller of it or an observer (or any combination of them)... or something else?

i'm guessing here, but i think you're talking about something akin to the force from the star wars mythos, that binds everything, but doesn't necessarily have any goal or motivation in and of itself - i'm quite open to the idea of something like that, but i wouldn't use the word "god" in reference to this force, since that would imply sentiency (is that a word?), which just doesn't sit well with me
 
mrqs said:
so is this entity you believe in the creator of the universe, the controller of it or an observer (or any combination of them)... or something else?

i'm guessing here, but i think you're talking about something akin to the force from the star wars mythos, that binds everything, but doesn't necessarily have any goal or motivation in and of itself - i'm quite open to the idea of something like that, but i wouldn't use the word "god" in reference to this force, since that would imply sentiency (is that a word?), which just doesn't sit well with me
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I am hesitant to make a differentiation between the two. God would necessarily be both, and more. To define the existence of God by a plan, motive or goal is to reduce it to human terms. I realize that it is all we've got, but from the perspective of God (would that we were empowered to see that perspective for an instant) it would be, to paraphrase Dickens, a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of his existence.
 
lunatic59 said:
I am hesitant to make a differentiation between the two. God would necessarily be both, and more. To define the existence of God by a plan, motive or goal is to reduce it to human terms. I realize that it is all we've got, but from the perspective of God (would that we were empowered to see that perspective for an instant) it would be, to paraphrase Dickens, a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of his existence.
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this seems to be quickly turning in to a semantics issue, so just to simplify a bit, i would only use the word "god" to describe a sentient entity - doesn't need to have a plan, motive or goal; just to be self-aware

otherwise gravity (for example) would qualify for the definition, as it sort of seems to connect everything, but i certainly wouldn't call gravity a god (unless we discover gravity to be sentient of course)
 
Of course gravity is sentient; he plays jokes on me all the time. Two weeks ago, for example, my bike chain came off, wrapped around my leg, and threw me off my bike. All 220lbs landed on my left knee. Gravity and I had a good laugh about it.
 
Steven58 said:
God exists. Met God when I was 19 and we've spoken regularly since. I've spoken to God this morning, in fact. :) No kidding.
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Well, as Falwell said, "I feel most ministers who claim they've heard God's voice are eating too much pizza before they go to bed at night, and it's really an intestinal disorder, not a revelation. ~Rev. Jerry Falwell" :)

On the other hand, there are studies I've read that indicate religious folks derive physical and psychological benefits. :confused:
 
Heh.. great Falwell quote. ;)

The kids' belief thing is interesting to me. We see families with several kids, all developing their own takes on religion/god, etc as time goes by. Some deeply religious and some with no sense of relevancy about those things at all.

The older we get, if we bother to think about those things, the more circular the thinking seems to become.

I'm a fan of two things very strongly: one, the most clarity about those things comes when we don't try for it, and two, existence, life, the universe etc is just the way things are no matter what we humans happen to be thinking or believing.
 
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