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God or No God?

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The debate of science vs. religion is a pointless one. The truth of the matter is that science and faith will never see eye to eye. Why? Because they are not one in the same no matter how hard people would like to believe that. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, not because it rose today or because science has proven that the earth rotates once a day (there are many circumstances that could change this), but because I just have faith that it will.

If science could prove the existence of my God, there would be no need for me to have faith in him. "Faith is the essence of things hoped for and the basis for things unseen." Hebrews 11:1. If faith is the essence of things hoped for and the basis for the unseen, it will very obviously never be proven wrong nor right by science. I do not have faith in God because I believe His existence to ever be proven nor that there is a need for it to be, I have faith in my God because I believe that He upholds me as He upholds all things in their own time.

Science is the observation, as best we can, by humanity of the environment which we find ourselves in, it is not and should not be treated as a basis for all things, rather an explanation of them as best can be surmised. Whether you or religious or not, it should be treated this way.

By the way, I'm a petroleum engineering major who was formerly a 2 year Geology major, I am not ignorant of science nor am I in denial of it. I'm also not the type to force my beliefs on anyone, I just chuckle when I see science vs. religion debates.
 
I don't see much in the way of a science vs god true debate here. People stating their views aren't necessarily debating.

If we come into a conversation like this one, and state that everyone is engaging in something "pointless," then we're liable to start a debate about what the forums are for. No need to do that, of course.
 
Can we prove the existence of faith, love or happiness? We can prove the existence of the effects of these things, but the existence of faith, love and happiness themselves cannot be proven. Do they exist?

I have seen that those who want to believe in God will find proof of His existence.. and those who don't want to believe in Him will find proof that He doesn't exist.

The mind is an amazing thing :)
 
Hmm

I simply believe why waste your breathe / energy on something that more than likely will probably never be proven?

Why waste your precious time trying to prove / disprove the impossible?

When I was a 18 I read up on something I would love to share with you people it is called the "Lazarus Effect" ,the "Lazarus Phenomenon" and also called the "Lazaruas Syndrome"

I dunno if it is on the interwebz I will check later. I promise you that it is a real theory though you will have to take my word for it.

But please understand it is only a theory and not concrete / proven esxaclty like trying to prove wether God exists or not.

Because you cannot prove that God exists or not. Simple and why waste time on this any way?

Any wayz

In a nut shelll the Theory basically "tries" to prove the existance of God.

How?

It is very very very interesting because there are only a handful of people in this world that have died and come back to life or have been "resurected" if I can use that word.

Not like Jesus died... but through other means of actually physically dying and then being saved or brought back to life through medical intervention life support systems / methods.

Their experiences have been recorded.

The people that died and came back to life tried to explain what they had seen / experienced.

Some have said they saw amazing things and others did not wish to comment.

Some people believe them where as others said they were delusional and making up stories.

The only problem is only they were the ones to see it if they did see anything at all that is. So generally a vast majority of people do not believe anything those that died and were ressurected back to life say about "seeing / experiencing the life after death" and comming back to this world and think they are just making up stories which could very well be true.

Me personally... yes I really really do believe and think there is a God,

It seems waaaay smarter to think there is a God than there being nothing.

Beacause if people say there was no such thing as God then where did everything come from??

But regardless and in any event... the real big question and to me and waaay more improtant question is of the matter:

Why.... waste.... your.... precious... time???

Why???

It is pretty clear that those that those that want to believe that there is something in life after death or a God and if it makes them more happy than not believing in anything then that's just great for them.

Those that want to believe that there is no such thing as God and pretend to know it... then great for them.

Either way you cannot prove there is a God but at the same exact time you cannot prove there isn't a god

I say what ever makes you happy then go for it because being unhappy is just not smart.

If you believe there isn't a God...and it makes you happier good for you.

If you believe there is a God ...and it makes you happier then good for you.

But once again...

Why waste all that precious time???

That is really insane me.

The clock is ticking

Use your it wisely :)
 
Heck, I spend time on a lot of things that others would consider a "waste of time."

Writing poems. Skydiving. Admiring the way our local university marching band practices. Sweeping the sidewalk out front. ... etc ad infinitum. ;)
 
pucky said:
By believing in a god people think they have all the answers and stop asking questions, the very questions that have brought us to where we are now....
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Wooow this is very wrong and completely false.

I have believed there is a God since about 8 years old give or take... if I had stopped asking questions since then I would be a pretty dumb human being today.

I am 24 now.

Sorry this is not at all correct.

I defnitely do not think I have all the answers as you claim, not even close by a loooong shot but you are claiming because I beleive there is a God I instantly will stop asking questions and know it all?

I still do not know eveything that is for sure not even a close but just because I believe in a God does not mean I will stop asking questions about everything.
 
Stinky Stinky said:
Wooow this is very wrong and completely false.

I have believed there is a God since about 8 years old give or take... if I had stopped asking questions since then I would be a pretty dumb human being today.

I am 24 now.

Sorry this is not at all correct.

I defnitely do not think I have all the answers as you claim, not even close by a loooong shot but you are claiming because I beleive there is a God I instantly will stop asking questions and know it all?

I still do not know eveything that is for sure not even a close but just because I believe in a God does not mean I will stop asking questions about everything.
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When will god deliver you from hell errr South Africa?:p

Seriously though never seen a person of god ever say they had all the answers. If anything religion leaves you with more questions than when you came in. This is where faith comes in to answer the unknown. Only when you die will you know for sure if everything you believed in was true or you got seriously screwed over with the choices you made when you was alive.
 
This question can ONLY be answered for one's self. I've gone back and forth on this question throughout my life. Raised in the Baptist church, saved when I was 10. Haven't been to church since I was in 9th grade. Was agnostic when I was in college. Found Him again years after my daughter was born.

Did many STUPID things in college that could have killed me or ruined my future. I realize now that even though I had forsaken God, He never gave up on me. People say hindsight is 20/20 and I always see His influence in my life, even if it's not immediate. I broke my foot in 2003 and was on limited work duty. My ex-wife passed a month later. If my foot hadn't been broken, I wouldn't have been able to spend as much time with my then teenage daughter during a time she needed me most. My father passed just 9 days ago. My work gives 3 days bereavement. I had requested 2 days off over 6 months ago. They just happened to be the 2 days after my bereavement so I was able to be with and help my 79yo mother even more. I truly feel I lead a Blessed life.

But the event that cemented my faith was an answered prayer. I was going thru the separation from my wife and one morning it all hit me. I was so upset I couldn't finish getting ready for work. I stopped and began to pray: "Help me through this, please give me some peace". Immediately I felt this "energy" start at the top of my head, flow down my body, and exit thru my feet. I felt so calm after that. I had been given the peace I asked for.

Even with all these experiences, as a logical person I have to admit I still can not definitively answer the question in this post. I only know having Him in my heart and the hearts of those around me makes MY life so much more. And I wouldn't want it any other way.
 
No one can definitively answer the question. In my mind that's what makes it one of the biggest questions of all and one of the ones most worth discussion. Logic fails to lead us to a conclusion. The scientific method fails as well. We end up left with just anecdotal evidence which is notoriously unreliable. So at the end of the day we not only have no answer to the question, but no way to arrive at one either. Yet we have a question that is completely valid and begs to be asked.
 
I found this to be an interesting quote on the topic (forgive me if it doesn't go by the makeshift rules of this thread specifically).

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus
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For every event that people think is proof of God's existence, one can also find an event that proves he doesn't exist. It all comes down to personal interpretation of these events based on each person's own experiences.

My approach then is rather simple. Since I have no guarantee of what happens to me after I pass this life then why worry about what happens after I'm dead? I'm not going to live my life in anticipation of being rewarded in an after-life, but I will live my life and treat others the way I expect them to treat me.

And one last thing I want to mention just because I saw this often during the World Series, I find it a little disturbing to see people praying for their favorite team to win. With as much suffering that takes place in the world, to think that an all mighty God would take the time to swing a game in one direction over another over ending the suffering that takes place in dark places of the world just seems a little self centered and misguided to me.
 
TxGoat said:
.. Since I have no guarantee of what happens to me after I pass this life then why worry about what happens after I'm dead? I'm not going to live my life in anticipation of being rewarded in an after-life, but I will live my life and treat others the way I expect them to treat me.
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There is no guarantee that I will be alive tomorrow. I could step off a sidewalk and get hit by a drunk driver.. or slip and fall in my bathtub. Since we have no guarantee that we will even be here tomorrow, why continue working at a job? Why plan that birthday party for Sally? Why buy groceries?

It's all about faith.
 
ardchoille said:
There is no guarantee that I will be alive tomorrow. I could step off a sidewalk and get hit by a drunk driver.. or slip and fall in my bathtub. Since we have no guarantee that we will even be here tomorrow, why continue working at a job? Why plan that birthday party for Sally? Why buy groceries?

It's all about faith.
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But, we do have a historic trend showing that tomorrow the sun will rise, your creditors will be at your door, and you'll be hungry around lunch time. I don't have any recollection of any events prior to my birth, or even shortly after my birth so I can't assume that I existed prior to my conception.



Oh and one question I have for those that do believe in a God, why do mostly all religions (I say mostly because I'm not familiar with all of them) identify their God as a "he" and not a "she"? I think I'd probably have an easier time submitting to a female God, but then again that's just me. ;)
 
EarlyMon said:
What I don't understand is why people want science to prove there is a God or want to beat up science by showing that it can't prove that. Or show that faith has a shortfall because it has no mass or thermal components.

I'm honestly not sure, but I think believing in God has something to do with forming ideas about the nature of your existence in metaphysical terms (why are we here) and to provide a compass for moral behavior and maybe just to express a faith about the nature of all things.

What I am sure about is that science is not about answering any of that. Science is about how things - like say, energy and matter, in combination or separately - work and why they work that way and so forth.

And science is largely practiced by scientists. So asking something of science is asking something of scientists.

So - to me, and this is just my personal opinion, not intended to offend anyone, merely intended to really illustrate my point - asking a scientist to engage in proofs regarding God is much like going into your mechanic's garage and asking when your pizza will be done. And vice versa.

I think it's a big universe and there's plenty of room for both pizzerias and mechanics, if you get my meaning.
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Totally agree!
Whether or not you believe in God is not a matter for science to determine. It is, and will always be a matter of faith!
Science and faith have even less in common than pizzerias and mechanics.

Socrat3s said:
Ok some of you guys went way of base. I'm not talking about the idea of god, theories, etc. I'm merely asking do you all believe in a god? A god that created us, and helps guide us through our lives. A god that will give eternal happiness or eternal hell. Do you believe in the judeo Christian God, you know like Jesus walking on water, that whole type of thing?
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God has most certainly, and without doubt, saved my life twice, so I definetly believe in God, as both of those incidences involved undeniable miracles.
What I can not, and may never know is why God deemed me worthy of continuing on this earth, when by most standards, my life is a very humble one. On the other hand, who am I to question God?

ardchoille said:
Can we prove the existence of faith, love or happiness? We can prove the existence of the effects of these things, but the existence of faith, love and happiness themselves cannot be proven. Do they exist?

I have seen that those who want to believe in God will find proof of His existence.. and those who don't want to believe in Him will find proof that He doesn't exist.

The mind is an amazing thing :)
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As a believer, I have never seen proof that God does exist, or proof that he does not, and I am absolutely positive that neither of those can as of yet be proven scientifically. It all comes back to your belief system, and as far as God goes, it has to rest on faith.
 
Miracle- said by someone religious when something cant be explained.

Luck- said by someone non religious when something cant be explained.

So when someone who dont believe in god survives something that he shouldnt have. Who saved that person? as god isnt going to if that person isnt a believer?

So its more a choice of words than an act of god.
 
It's feel good stuff, the luck thing and the "miracle" thing, as opposed to looking more deeply into the details of how some things come about.

But:

Back in the late 70s I won $33,850 at a racetrack betting a "pick 6." I had to pick the winners of races 2 through 7 before race 2 began. The bet cost me 2 dollars.

I'd never done it before and still have no idea what the odds were on the horses/jockey's I picked, as I simply barked my numbers at random to the ticket seller at the window. I don't know the first thing about handicapping, etc.

I have friends who call it an Act of God and friends who call it blind luck. All I know is I went to the track to have fun and lose about twenty bucks while enjoying the spectacle. As it is, $33,512 was the amount of the slip fee owed by my brother on a boat he was about to lose when he was knocked out of his job by a long illness (he lived on the boat for a few months over six years).

Got that paid and he picked himself up and things went well for him.
 
I've spent four years in combat zones around the globe. I've come to the realization that the only person who is looking out for me, is me. I've been clinically dead twice. You can't tell me there is someone looking out for me while I've done despicable acts to my fellow man.
 
most religions are based on faith, not proof. So people who need earthly scientific "proof' will not get it. Being a Christian we will never know everything until we die and go to heaven, we know as humans being Christian is what we feel in our hearts and how we treat others. God does ask that we believe in a lot of what we don't understand, but in return we get a lot. That in a nutshell is my try at explaining being Christian. For me, I see proof everyday, our existence, our beautiful planet, the kindness and love others show, even evolution, is something I believe is God's miracle.
 
bbrosen said:
most religions are based on faith, not proof. So people who need earthly scientific "proof' will not get it.
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The only issue I tend to have with this is it's the same line that cults use. I asked a friend who is also deeply religious what differentiates the mainstream religions from a cult since there's always a leap of faith that is required, whether it's believing that Bob talks to God and wants you to wear the Tennis Shoes or whether it's believing that God gave Moses some tablets with "guidelines". His direct answer was that a true religion is "mainstream" and has a large population of followers, which whether or not that's the main distinction, I have a problem with mainstreams' religions argument as to why their form of religion is not considered a cult is "Everybody's doing it!"


Oh and I do appreciate the believers out there taking the time to discuss a topic like this with an even tone. I know it's not a discussion that some devoutly religious people like to discuss, and sometimes those not of faith tend to ask the right question but ask it in the wrong manner. So if any of my questions or thoughts come across that way, forgive me in advance.
 
I'm concerned - when we unlocked this thread, we asked that the topic stay on God vs No God.

Religion itself is a different discussion that typically leads to bad feelings and misunderstandings.
 
EarlyMon said:
I'm concerned - when we unlocked this thread, we asked that the topic stay on God vs No God.

Religion itself is a different discussion that typically leads to bad feelings and misunderstandings.
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Yes I agree and I think that might have been my fault.

I did not think it would go like that.

Apologies, but getting back on track:

I think it boils down to maybe something like this but I am not 120% sure though and I could be wrong maybe?:

I personally believe no body can prove wether there is a God or not and I also believe that Hell is irrational and is not real.

But that is just my opinion and could be totally wrong.

I do believe there is a God though but not with 120% certainty because no body actually knows that there is a God for 120% certainty.

I think that is the case.

I don't think it is possible to determine wether there is a god or not.

But please understand this is just my 2 cents and might not be fact.

I could be totally wwrong and we all make mistakes :)
 
Stinky Stinky said:
Yes I agree and I think that might have been my fault.
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You seem to think that too often, my friend. ;)

But anyway.. I have a theory that I don't believe, but is just as plausible to me as God making the universe: the Universe is eternal, and thus old enough to have spawned a creature, over time, evolved from a long lost civilization, that learned to manipulate, over time, just about everything in the Universe.. a creature that would appear as a "god" to every other creature, especially humans.
 
Yes. That is the creature that the Universe spawned, who appears off and on in human events as various gods, demi-gods, saviors, devils/demons, angels, taxi drivers, chefs, pogo stick designers and plastic extruder machine maintenance experts.



:D
 
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