swimminginthoughts
Newbie
I feel in good company. I would have never guessed there to be so many other conservatives here with me! Sadly, I'm usually the odd man out. How many lefties have we got here?! Huh?
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NextElect Obama Countdown
- Thread starter phogel24
- Start date
Your comments imply that all taxation and government spending are tantamount to theft or slavery. Others have implied that a flat tax is the only fair approach to government revenue. These visions of a nearly tax-free libertarian utopia are ridiculously naive.
If you think that you can be successful and continue to enjoy the fruits of your labor without taxes to fund socialized law enforcement, socialized education, socialized roads and infrastructure, and socialized regulation of transportation, air quality, food, medicine, and consumer products, then you really have no clue about what contributes to a functioning society in the 21st century. In your world, there's no way that we could continue to spend over half a trillion dollars on defense. What would you cut?
Obama has actually cut middle class taxes since arriving in office. The ultimate Republican that the right loves so much, Ronald Reagan, presided over a top tax rate of 50% (today's top rate is 35%), raised taxes every year of his presidency except the first, and solved the 1983 Social Security crisis with higher taxes. Was Reagan subjecting us all to slavery as well?
Finally, what is it about Obama that causes you to continue to invoke slavery as a metaphor? Hmmm...
swimminginthoughts
Newbie
Oh wait, by "lefties" I meant left handed people. I'm usually the exception with that as well!
rdalcanto
Android Enthusiast
Man do I wish I had the answer. I do know that the current and proposed systems are both flawed. Tort reform has to be near the top of the list. Not just because of what doctors have to pay in malpractice insurance, but also because of the tremendous waste that goes with practicing defensive medicine. For example, I have NEVER had a spinal cord injury in surgery (I'm a spine surgeon). But I still feel obligated to add monitoring (very expensive) to EVERY posterior thorasic and cervical case I do so I can fight off a law suit for that one case in my career that will eventually happen where the patient wakes up with a problem. Being a doctor is very had work. It is stressful. You can't expect to continue to get the best and brightest if you start paying doctors the same salaries as a plummer. Unfortunately, as a society we are no longer asking people to accept personal responsibility. One of the biggest failings of Bush was the drug perscription plan. That costs a fortune to treat a lot of medical problems that patients wouldn't have if they just watched their weight by eating right and excercising every day (notice how the contestants on "Biggest Looser" who have diabetes and high blood pressure are cured of their diseases within weeks of getting their asses in the gym and loosing weight). Do you know how many Medicaid patients I see in my office who don't work because they are "disabled," they can't pay me, but they can afford a pack of cigarettes a day, a cell phone nicer than mine, and illegal drugs? It is all about choices. If people want health care, they need to make paying for it themselves a top priority over cable tv, cell phones, cars, etc. Obama is going to raise my income tax, add an Afghan tax, add a health care tax, cap and trade tax (that will affect the cost of things we buy), etc. My tax burden is going to go up 5-10%, and it's already way too high. Before taxes I make a good salery, but after tax.... Lets just say I have to pinch pennies and shouldn't have to. I should be going out to dinner regularly and supporting my local restaurants. I should have enough money that I pay others who need a job to wash my car and change my oil, etc. Instead I'm forced to be a cheap bastard because I refuse to go into debt and I want to retire someday, and that hurts my neighbors who need me to spend my money so they can make more.
(P.S. - Reagan followed Carter. Reagan lowered taxes and got the economy moving. He showed that the government can take in more money by taxing at a lower rate because of the increased productivity that comes when you leave more money in the hands of businesses and consumers.)
The facts simply don't support your assertions. Reagan cut taxes in his first year, and as the deficit began to skyrocket, he began raising taxes again. He certainly didn't follow any pay-as-you-go balanced budget ideal that everyone keeps advocating. This article by Republican Bruce Bartlett provides the details.
Your assertion that the government can decrease tax rates and increase revenues (i.e. follow the Laffer curve) has been refuted by economists and defies common sense. It's a ridiculous right-wing talking point that has no basis in reality. If politicians could lower taxes and reduce deficits simultaneously, they would have done so long, long ago.
rdalcanto
Android Enthusiast
Interesting read. Doesn't match the table they show though. They list total tax cuts under Reagan as 275 Billion, and total tax increase as 132 Billion. That is a net tax cut under Reagan of 143 Billion.
Regardless, what I want is a government that doesn't spend money it doesn't have. Nothing sucks away wealth like debt. We could do so much more with our tax dollars if we aren't using a bunch of it to pay off interest. The government needs to go on a "rice and beans" diet. The problem is our elected officials keep spending money to make certain people happy to ensure they get elected again next time.
Regardless, what I want is a government that doesn't spend money it doesn't have. Nothing sucks away wealth like debt. We could do so much more with our tax dollars if we aren't using a bunch of it to pay off interest. The government needs to go on a "rice and beans" diet. The problem is our elected officials keep spending money to make certain people happy to ensure they get elected again next time.
We agree on this. Stop requiring the uninsured (or the unhelmeted motorcycle driver) to get full bore care and those of us that have insurance won't have to support the system.
Sorry: My malpractice is %5 of my gross. Nowhere near the cost of billing/office overhead.
You've made my point: Don't lose your job or have a small business. If you're sick they won't cover you. Even if you're willing to pay the $15000 that employer plan costs they won't cover you.
Excellent points. But we don't allow withholding care at least at the hospital level
Often would have been cheaper to have them under routine wellness care, but MD offices CAN refuse and DO refuse based on ability to pay. Illnesses get worse and care becomes more expensive. So a counter to the increased cost of globalizing care would be that less acute/catastrophic care would be required. Won't be cheaper, but it will be less expensive than it is now.
And I've often wondered if you went to an NFL game ($500 for a family?) how many people there lack health insurance. I'm in lock-step w/ you. That is F'd up.....
swimminginthoughts
Newbie
The funny thing about this whole "health care" debate is that you cannot insure your health, you can't, it's impossible. What you are insuring are your finances against your health. You will not be turned down for treatment at any emergency room because of not having insurance. Will you get shuffled around? Maybe. Will you get slower service? Maybe. But the fact is, you will get service without this magical "insurance" because you cannot insure your health, you are insuring your ability to pay a bill.
Originally they were calling this whole debate "health insurance" but switched it to "health care" because it sounds better.
Everyone knows that this has nothing to do with compassion for people and has everything to do with grabbing power and making another pot of money like social security from which to steal from.
If they were serious about truly helping people they would: promote HSAs, tort reform, allow insurance companies to sell across state lines, remove health insurance from the work place (let me shop for my own), and fix the drain and waste from medicare and medicaid.
It's simple and, you don't need 2000 pages of law to do this. Let me be self reliant, I'm a big boy, I can handle my finances and health better than the government can do it for me. Let me opt out of social security, I will solely take responsibility for my retirement, I can get better returns and secure a better future than the government can for me. Let me opt out of medicare fully understanding that I take my future into my own hands And for gods sake, if I have a cold or get sick, let me take care of it myself.
These social programs are unsustainable, inefficient, and down right treasonous. They don't work. (Sorry England and Canada)
Don't steal my money and pass it through some bureaucracy to give to my neighbor, if he needs help, I can give it to him myself.
Originally they were calling this whole debate "health insurance" but switched it to "health care" because it sounds better.
Everyone knows that this has nothing to do with compassion for people and has everything to do with grabbing power and making another pot of money like social security from which to steal from.
If they were serious about truly helping people they would: promote HSAs, tort reform, allow insurance companies to sell across state lines, remove health insurance from the work place (let me shop for my own), and fix the drain and waste from medicare and medicaid.
It's simple and, you don't need 2000 pages of law to do this. Let me be self reliant, I'm a big boy, I can handle my finances and health better than the government can do it for me. Let me opt out of social security, I will solely take responsibility for my retirement, I can get better returns and secure a better future than the government can for me. Let me opt out of medicare fully understanding that I take my future into my own hands And for gods sake, if I have a cold or get sick, let me take care of it myself.
These social programs are unsustainable, inefficient, and down right treasonous. They don't work. (Sorry England and Canada)
Don't steal my money and pass it through some bureaucracy to give to my neighbor, if he needs help, I can give it to him myself.
yankeeboy
Android Enthusiast
Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head....
I can't stand a lot of what Mike Huckabee stood for, but he fully supported the implementation of a fair tax, and I probably would have voted for him for this one reason...
The Fair Tax:
- Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
- Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
- Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
- Allows American products to compete fairly
- Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
- Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
- Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
- Abolishes the IRS
What is also interesting is that taxes begin to be collected from illegals, underground networks, tourists, etc...so BigJohn's argument about these individuals not paying their way is eliminated, more revenue is generated than before, an ineffective IRS is done away with, etc...If you want to implement a national healthcare program, you can say that those people alone could pay for the program, effectively generating over $1.5 Trillion in currently uncollected taxes. I understand, BigJohn, that you are a Bruce Bartlett fan - and that you will immediately do away with this idea as he is the biggest proponent against this - yet lets all productively think about ways to solve the problem we are looking to solve.
rdalcanto...your Tort Reform argument is not only fair, it is critical. The fact that law suits are causing you to choose whom to take care of is an abhorrant failure in our society. I think everyone on this board can agree that there are people that take advantage of the system all over the place. My sister-in-law (god bless her little heart
) is one of them...she was pregnant, gained too much weight during the pregnancy, had her child, and had the state pay for a cosmetic tummy tuck. Her and I (we dont speak anymore) got in a screaming match that she is taking advantage of the system and, I, effectively paid for her gross negligence during her pregnancy. I am also paying for her groceries because she refuses to go back to work - why would she? She gets money for her oil, electric and child. Welfare reform is critical as well as I am a firm believer that if you are receiving welfare, then the state/fed should put you to work on things that need improvement.Gmermel - the fact that you pay 5% off YOUR gross is horrendous. When you are hired by a hospital, they should be providing your insurance. Is this a tax write off at the end of the year for you - effectively negating the cost? My mom is a Clinical Nurse Manager, and her 5 to 1 patient nurse ratio has been recently turned into a 9 to 1 ratio. The hospital cites rising insurance costs for the cutbacks, and my mother doesnt pay her insurance, the hospital does. Why are Doctors "self-employed", does the hospital pay you per surgery or do you act as like a consultant?
I dont want my taxes raised either - bigjohn, I am a smoker as well, and pay over $10 a pack in Manhattan. Its disgusting, yet my subways are cleaner, more and more people are quitting smoking in NY than ever before, and people are getting healthier - which ultimately will help to lower healthcare costs. They fought it tooth and nail when it was proposed saying business would suffer - yet bar and restaurants are packed to the gills with NON-Smokers, the overwhelming majority of people.
Let's be open to importing drugs from other countries that are the same thing as what is here - just 4-5 times more expensive. It will force our drug companies to lower costs and improve the product.
The most interesting thing to come out of this message board is that it seems like mostly everyone agrees with a bit of one side and a bit of the other (expect bigjohn
), yet we all agree that it all isnt working.BTW....did you all see that the Nexus One is coming to Verizon!! LOL.
Well boys and girls looks like from what I am reading on the web Obama gave his blessing to by pass the Republicans on having any input on the merger of the two bills. They will be held behind closed doors with top democrats. Pelosi and Reid and of course Obama will use the nucular option and force this down our throats without any dissenting voices. They will not let us hear nor have any of our elected officials have input. Its Obama,Reid and Pelosis way or the highway. So much for transparancy and working across party lines. He has truly devided this nation. Does he not see the polls of Americans we do not want this as it stands. Its does nothing to lower health costs. Anyway The man has spoken, after its done behind closed doors with Dems only we will have to deal with it. Im afraid the next one they will shove down our throats is the Cap and Trade which will raise the prices on everything we use.
I am not an employee of the hospital but independent. Do my own billing, pay my own insurance. It is a tax write-off which helps. What with our exorbitant tax rates, I get 40% off of my premium
TheGoodMom
Newbie
You're very smart and I like your style...wanna be friends?
I just cannot, for the life of me, understand, how these people can LOGICALLY blame Obama, for the DECADES of bad government before him! I mean, SERIOUSLY? He is and has put his heart, soul and life into attempting to FIX what others have trashed. You people that just wanna complain only add to the problems; how about being constructive, instead of destructive?
I propose the question again, what are some viable SOLUTIONS?
rdalcanto
Android Enthusiast
Malpractice insurance rates vary by specialty and location. Doctors that deliver babies in some states pay over 100K a year in malpractice insurance. How doctors are paid also varies. Most of the physicians in my office are employed by Intermountain Health Care. The health care system figures out what the average doctor in each field brings in, figures out the overhead, and then agrees to pay the doctor a set amount for a unit of work. The advantage to that system, is that if the doctor only works 10% as hard that month for some reason, they still make 10% of their salary. As a surgeon, I work in the same office, but I'm paid completely differently. I bill for my surgeries. The office deducts the overhead costs from my collections, which are pretty constant every month. What ever is left is mine and I get taxed on that. The problem is, if I have a bad month, I don't make any money, or actually loose money, because the overhead is fixed. In September, I had a string of patients sent to me with no insurance, that really needed operations. Unlike others surgeons in my city which just turn these people away, I operated on all of them. I worked hard the entire month, and after overhead expenses, I made NOTHING! What burns me up, is that one of those patients, who I did for free, had paid is Chiropractor $6,000 before he came to me. So the Chiropractor, who didn't go to medical school, and didn't help this patient, made a fortune, while I lost money fixing him. The patient was very grateful, and wrote me a wonderful letter, but his letter didn't help pay my morgage....
rdalcanto
Android Enthusiast
We aren't blaming Obama for the decades of bad government before him. We are scared to death of the incredible debt he is about to place on our children by way of the huge new government programs he and his budies want to create. There isn't a single government program that has ever fixed anything or cost less than predicted. Government programs don't fix poverty. They allow people to stay home, not work, and become dependant on the government. It is a way for the Democrats to ensure they get elected again next time - job security. If you passed a law that said you can't vote if you get a hand out and don't pay taxes, there won't be a single Democrat in Washington after the next election.
ub3r-l33ch
Member
I doubt anyone will even have their current phone from now to 2012 or 2016.
TheGoodMom
Newbie
I agree with you on the poor person shouldn't be spending irresponsibly; however, the cost of healthcare and a $75/month cell phone bill, $1500 flat-screen tv and a $700 laptop...hardly are logical to even compare. Yes, speaking from experience...I have them all, then lost my income. Does that mean I should try to return them or take them to a pawn shop, where I'm gonna get completely screwed? Am I not supposed to keep any possessions?
A lot of you people who are making judgement calls, have obviously never had a major illness, bad luck or simply not BORN fortunate enough to sustain yourself (such as a mentally ******ed adult, etc)...
I sure glad none of you are God.
TheGoodMom
Newbie
Omg, you really said that, Doctor? Wow. I had a better opinion of your opinions, until you made that statement. Come on.
rdalcanto - have you not heard of paragraphs? Gratitude can be better than money but you are right it does not pay the mortgage. I bet you managed though. I'm glad you did the right thing for those patients but you would have got paid if your country had a better safety net for those less fortunate than yourself. I think what you are scared to death of is the cost of sorting out the mess created by the last lot.
TheGoodMom - you will be counted among the sheep. Some others here will be counted among the goats. Read Matthew 25 verses 31 to the end of the chapter. I think you are wonderful!
Other people, a country needs to raise tax to function, to pay for roads, police, fire fighters, the military and yes - welfare and healthcare for those through no fault of their own find themselves in need. It all takes money.
Some seem to be confusing the "will not work" with the "can not work" people.
If you say you want the choice to help your neighbour - how are you going to know they need the help? Ah yes, they will be begging on the streets because they have no other option.
TheGoodMom - you will be counted among the sheep. Some others here will be counted among the goats. Read Matthew 25 verses 31 to the end of the chapter. I think you are wonderful!
Other people, a country needs to raise tax to function, to pay for roads, police, fire fighters, the military and yes - welfare and healthcare for those through no fault of their own find themselves in need. It all takes money.
Some seem to be confusing the "will not work" with the "can not work" people.
If you say you want the choice to help your neighbour - how are you going to know they need the help? Ah yes, they will be begging on the streets because they have no other option.
On the stimulus that we are going to paying off for years with little results here is why... Phantom zip codes also found in Virginia | Washington Examiner
They are giving the money to phantom zip codes and people that dont exsist. And you want this government to run your life? They are loosing the stimulus money. Where did these millions go>? This government needs to be investigated for coruption.As much as $9.5 million in federal stimulus dollars went to 14 zip codes in Virginia that don’t exist. Read the article
They are giving the money to phantom zip codes and people that dont exsist. And you want this government to run your life? They are loosing the stimulus money. Where did these millions go>? This government needs to be investigated for coruption.As much as $9.5 million in federal stimulus dollars went to 14 zip codes in Virginia that don’t exist. Read the article
vincentp
Android Expert
This is a fairly innocuous question, I think. I'm not intending to insult anybody.
A lot of people state that health care is a privilege and not a right. I'm inclined to agree, to a certain extent. Why do the same people, though, not have any problem with the government providing protection from disaster (firemen) and crime (law enforcement)? We pay for those things. What's different about health care? Health complications are another form of emergency that people inevitably will need assistance with or protection from. I think having a healthy, less stressed citizenry is something both the government and the people should want and would benefit from.
I'm not a huge fan of the bill they're proposing, nor the democrats botched original version of a government run plan, but wouldn't it be worth it to the majority of Americans (specifically middle class) to pay a little more in taxes if this equated to a lot less in health care, the inability to be denied coverage and protection from related bankruptcy? It works in other countries just fine.
I'd like to clarify. I'm kind of middle of the road. I lean conservative on plenty of issues (note important difference between "conservative" and "republican") and liberal on others. I don't associate with a specific party and generally don't like many of our elected officials, so please don't jump down my throat calling me a lefty or a socialist or whatever other names come to mind. This was intended to a be a legitimate question.
TL;DR
Crappy current bill iteration aside, what is inherently wrong with a government ensuring good, worry free health care for its people? What makes this a bad thing?
A lot of people state that health care is a privilege and not a right. I'm inclined to agree, to a certain extent. Why do the same people, though, not have any problem with the government providing protection from disaster (firemen) and crime (law enforcement)? We pay for those things. What's different about health care? Health complications are another form of emergency that people inevitably will need assistance with or protection from. I think having a healthy, less stressed citizenry is something both the government and the people should want and would benefit from.
I'm not a huge fan of the bill they're proposing, nor the democrats botched original version of a government run plan, but wouldn't it be worth it to the majority of Americans (specifically middle class) to pay a little more in taxes if this equated to a lot less in health care, the inability to be denied coverage and protection from related bankruptcy? It works in other countries just fine.
I'd like to clarify. I'm kind of middle of the road. I lean conservative on plenty of issues (note important difference between "conservative" and "republican") and liberal on others. I don't associate with a specific party and generally don't like many of our elected officials, so please don't jump down my throat calling me a lefty or a socialist or whatever other names come to mind. This was intended to a be a legitimate question.
TL;DR
Crappy current bill iteration aside, what is inherently wrong with a government ensuring good, worry free health care for its people? What makes this a bad thing?
@yankeeboy - I whole heartedly support the fair tax. It's a step in the right direction.
@rdalcanto -I agree. In fact, the founding fathers never intended for this type of taxation, nor did they intend for the sheeple to vote for their senators. Repeal the 17th amendment! China has more representation in washington than your state does...
@thegoodmom - Have a look here - Party In Power - Congress and Presidency - A Visual Guide To The Balance of Power In Congress, 1945-2008
Your "socialist democrats" have been in control for the most part of all those years of "screwed up government"... so let's try some libertarian politics. Get the government back in to the business of "PROMOTING" the general welfare, instead of passing laws to give favor to their voting blocks...
@rdalcanto -I agree. In fact, the founding fathers never intended for this type of taxation, nor did they intend for the sheeple to vote for their senators. Repeal the 17th amendment! China has more representation in washington than your state does...
@thegoodmom - Have a look here - Party In Power - Congress and Presidency - A Visual Guide To The Balance of Power In Congress, 1945-2008
Your "socialist democrats" have been in control for the most part of all those years of "screwed up government"... so let's try some libertarian politics. Get the government back in to the business of "PROMOTING" the general welfare, instead of passing laws to give favor to their voting blocks...
swimminginthoughts
Newbie
Because by this logic, we already pay for health insurance (ems, ambulance service). We cannot "insure" our "health" except to the extent that we work out, eat healthy, etc. All insurance protects your finances, not the actual physical thing that you have insurance on. If I insure my car, I'm not protecting my car with a bubble around it, I'm protecting the money that I paid for it. If I insure my house and belongings, I'm protecting the value of my things. The health insurance that I carry for myself insures my finances against the cost of any illness I might get.
I don't understand why people don't see this, it seems like such an easy concept, unless I'm the one completely wrong!
I have to say though that the discussion here is so much more civilized than other places I've seen!
No Republican will ever vote for this bill. Why do they deserve an ounce of input? Why waste the time and effort? In politics, you trade your vote in order to get what you want. Only an idiot or a sucker would allow someone who wants the bill to fail - or the reforms themselves to fail - to have any say in what is in the final bill.
That being said, the Republicans have had innumerable opportunities to impact the content of the bill. Between the multiple committees generating early versions and the amendment process in both houses, the Republicans have had a chance to put their ideas on the table. "No," however, is not an idea.
The Democrats ran on the implementation of health care reform, and they too are your elected officials. Elections have consequences. Imagine that.