What the heck is the deal with iphone users Vs Android users

[Snow_Fox]

i know you touched on this being a petty argument, but i still have to comment.

i will never be able to fathom why people think this way. Company no. 1 does everything they are supposed to do to legally protect their creation and product and they are the bad guy because they dont make it open source. I cant stand when people get on this soapbox about not paying for stuff. geez people. wah, wah. you cant legally put os x on 100 machines, without paying for licensing agreements. how do you people actually come up with this stuff?

I never said anything about apple offering their OS for free..

Here is my point.

If I buy a NEW UNUSED copy of OSX I CAN NOT legally install it on anything BESIDES a "MAC".

This has nothing to do with wanting something for free :/ This is about apple forcing you to buy a mac in order to use their os..

My point was that apple DOES force you to buy a mac if you want to use osx.. So your argument is technically wrong.. You don't have a choice if you want osx on superior hardware....

 

[Snow_Fox]

I think you're forgetting what the general population is like. Not everyone is technologically competent, and people are lazy and don't want to put in the time. Does this make them better or worse than those that are good with technology/electronics? No, it just makes them different and their priorities different.

Some people want something thats easy to use, and there's nothing wrong with that. The ease of use does make them top of the line, for some people.

I disagree with you.

Since when is being lazy NOT a bad thing?

If people REALLY want something easy.. then go get a flip phone :/

Do you have any idea how many stupid people I deal with on a daily basis?

"how do I hook up a vcr?"

"its color coded......."

It amazes me these people can fend for themselves in life.. I had one lady freaking out about how to hook up cable.. No not hook cable up by herself or anything... I mean freaking out not knowing how to hook a coaxle from the wall to her TV! These are the same people I have to deal with anything an issue with a phone comes up..

The ONLY good thing about apple.. is I can say flat out "call them".

However, the "simpler" things get for people.. the more people expect it to be simpler..

"the smart get smarter, the stupid get... welll lets face it some of these people can't possibly be any more idiotic.."

 

[mrspeedmaster]

I disagree with you.
Do you have any idea how many stupid people I deal with on a daily basis?
It amazes me these people can fend for themselves in life..

Your cable example is a bit absurd. People have different priorities. My Lawyer know jack sh*t about computers but I trust him w/ his breadth of legal knowledge.

Does that make me smarter than him that I know how to do denial-of-service attack by tailing my /var/logs/secure, get the reverse IP, add the hacker to my host.deny file,then add a new rule in fw list, than add a cron job to nuke the offending IP. I then a run bash script to sends out curl commands to various web servers that act in tandem to overload someone trying to hack my computer?

BTW, I do this on a mac and sometimes thru my iPhone using SSH.
Does that make me smarter than him?

Just because people can google drivers and patches, they think they're computer literate. I've worked with a lot of script-kiddies at my past job who think they know shit. Give me 4 minutes, I can run some SQL injection and they all shut up pretty quick.

People have different priorities. I tried to learn how to fix a carburetor on a classic car. I bought books, spent hours, in the end, I just hired a mechanic. Does that make it stupid because I didn't know how to adjust my ignition points and rebuild my carb?

The color of a cable is not that big of deal. People could care less. If I asked you right now to get a network switch, compile usb drivers into the kernel of your linksys so it can display routing info to monitor, do you think you can do it? Now do you get my point?

 

[Snow_Fox]

I have no doubt that you have more computer knowledge than me.

I am not disagreeing that there is a major difference between people's level of capability.

However, if your lawyer were so incompetent that he could not plug a tv into a wall.. would you really trust him to be your lawyer? I have had customers who were freaking out over a coaxle cable.

I am not disagreeing that different people have different priorities, nor that your technical skills are higher than mine.

however my point about cable remains... If you had to deal with some of the people I speak to on a regular basis, you would probably agree with me and my co workers.. Some people just shouldn't have phones.. Much less phones with power.

I don't care if the guy operating on my brain can perform complex task on a computer. However, I doubt he would have become a doctor (or lawyer) if they were so incompetent that they couldn't plug something basic up :/...

I am not saying all simplicity is bad.. I am just saying that EVERYONE has to learn.. If people are afraid to or won't.. then yes that is reason to ultimately look down on them in some respects.

You may not be able to change a carb.. however, if your the only person on a 100 mile road to no where.. and you have the tools/tire and a manual..

I am willing to bet you would learn how to change a tire pretty fast if it went out.

*edit* and you say people could care less..

However, They seem to care a lot when they come in all confused because their dvd player isn't working, never mind the fact they totally mismatched the colors... oh and no they aren't colorblind..

I am not asking for them to learn how to program c# or java.. Hell I am not asking basic html.. But, I do think it is fair to think people would put SOME effort into learning to use whatever device they get.

I never expect anything to "just work".. I got an ipod many years ago... it by no means "just worked" i had to load itunes... then I had to use itunes... I had to read the manual when I couldn't just drag and drop the music. Just like anything else in life..

Then I learned to research whatever product I am buying.

 

[330D]

I have no doubt that you have more computer knowledge than me.

I am not disagreeing that there is a major difference between people's level of capability.

However, if your lawyer were so incompetent that he could not plug a tv into a wall.. would you really trust him to be your lawyer? I have had customers who were freaking out over a coaxle cable.

I am not disagreeing that different people have different priorities, nor that your technical skills are higher than mine.

however my point about cable remains... If you had to deal with some of the people I speak to on a regular basis, you would probably agree with me and my co workers.. Some people just shouldn't have phones.. Much less phones with power.

I don't care if the guy operating on my brain can perform complex task on a computer. However, I doubt he would have become a doctor (or lawyer) if they were so incompetent that they couldn't plug something basic up :/...

I am not saying all simplicity is bad.. I am just saying that EVERYONE has to learn.. If people are afraid to or won't.. then yes that is reason to ultimately look down on them in some respects.

You may not be able to change a carb.. however, if your the only person on a 100 mile road to no where.. and you have the tools/tire and a manual..

I am willing to bet you would learn how to change a tire pretty fast if it went out.

*edit* and you say people could care less..

However, They seem to care a lot when they come in all angry at me because their dvd player isn't working, never mind the fact they totally mismatched the colors... oh and no they aren't colorblind..

I agree. Well said. Working through a problem is becoming a lost art....

 

[mrspeedmaster]

I guess you are a kid in his 20s. I've learned to be patient w/ as I get older.
I've dealt with stupider scenarios than the coloring of a cable. I've worked with incredibly gifted PHDs, extremely analytical people and one of them is my friend. You'd expect he know how to connect to a wifi-hotspot. He doesn't nor does he care to. Each people have their priorities. To you, it may seem trivial but to them, they don't get bother with it. My electrician lost patient with me because I didn't want to cut wires in my wall and install a breaker in the fuse box. Sure, popping a fuse & patching the wall is easy but I have this fear of electrocution. Same thing w/ plumbing. I can install a water heater, cut pipes and read the manual but why should I?

However, if your lawyer were so incompetent that he could not plug a tv into a wall.. would you really trust him to be your lawyer?

Yes. I've dealt w. Laywers/Doctors who can't plug their tv in or set the clock on their vcr.

I am just saying that EVERYONE has to learn.. If people are afraid to or won't.. then yes that is reason to ultimately look down on them in some respects.

I use to act the same way when I was younger. I use to look down on people who didn't know how to drive stick-shift. To me, everyone should learn or not be afraid to learn. Some people prefer driving an automatic like the same way they like to sync their music w/ itunes.

Or should everyone drive heel-to-toe stick shift and manually mount their phone/sd card,copy the folders of music, and create.m3u playlist to get the same experience? If you used HTC 2 years ago on Windows mobile, you would know it was PITA. I mean, it was so archaic & clumsy, you had to copy a jpeg of the album into your music folder just to get album art. Then you had to make sub folders based on artists because the app looked for a folder.jpeg. I know you can sync with Windows but I don't use Windows.
I just recently got out of that hell when I traded in my VZ HTC Touch Pro for a HTC Incredible. Like the Incredible, the HTC Touch Pro was touted as an iPhone killer.

I prefer hitting sync in itunes. If it makes me a simpleton for liking that, then you don't understand the avg consumer.
Both get you from point A to B.

Get my point?

 

[darreno1]

I am very aware of how to install it. Casual users won't be. The restricted extras need to be added to your apt-source list. Casual users won't be googling. My mom sure won't know how to do this. She sure doesn't know how to type in sudo vi ./etc/apt.list to add that restricted repos then type in sudo apt-get install restricted-extras. Yeah, I can do it but how many casual users can? Yeah, I know about synaptics and the gui.
And you discount my point on the legality of it. That link of yours even gives that fore-warning.

Having to go to what Ubuntu calls "restricted-extras" repository is treading on thin legal line: libdvdcss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sure your mom just like many casual users don't know how to do a bunch of things. It's really beside the point because in that case, they'll ask for help.

And 'threading on a thin legal line' does NOT equal to illegal. But just to back up a little. I never said for the casual user Ubuntu is easier to use (or as easy to use) than Windows or OSX. I said I'd prefer to use it (over OSX) and that it CAN BE if customized correctly for the casual user.

Same thing for Cisco VPN. Someone needs to step up to plate and pay the licensing and since linux is free, what organization is going to pay a royalty and not make money on it. The only way that will work is if HP/Dell ships Ubuntu and adds a package that covers all these royalties. So, I don't think anyone is going to push it when there is costs involve.

That cost can be passed along to the user just like with any other OS. And it can be an optional add-on for those that need it.

That is exactly why I use a Mac. Your quote hits it on the spot. I can make nice looking slideshows w/ iPhoto a DVD from my vacation by plugging in a firewire cable. Then when I have to work, I can get raw in the command line and maybe try to write an Android app or two. I think I gave two excellent examples of why it is not ready for prime-time. Like in my original posts, its these little things that just sort of adds up to being a hassle. I can get VPN, DVD and all the stuff I raised. I don't need you to google a link for me. I'm just saying it is a hassle. I even had a routine of how I installed Linux; keeping all the deb pkgs backed up and installing in sequence because of dependency issues.

For the casual user, I agree, but for a guy who claims to be right at home with Unix, it's a little strange you would complain about having to do a little work via the command line or repositories. Also it's not like you'll have to do this every time. It's usually a one time thing for the particular codec.

As for RAW... Again,

Maybe I should be clearer: I buy new cameras all the time. I have an aversion to gadgets/acquiring new toys.

Each time a new camera comes out; Nikon/Canon/Whoever usually create a new RAW profile. Those new profiles simply don't work with existing RAW converters/importers.

You have to wait till someone makes the import profiles. In the case of Linux, it may be never or 6-9 months down the road. By that time, I'm already on to my next camera. I wish camera companies stick to one format like Leica. Stick with dng instead of .raw, .cr2, .orf, .nef or whatever. With Adobe, the wait is about 1-2 months, In the meantime, you use whatever converter the camera company supply you to convert them to dng/tiffs.

So your Nikon works fine and dandy today in GIMP. There is no guarantee the next model 2 years down the road will work when Nikon decides to add something to their RAW format.

Well this is certainly out of the norm for most people. I don't know anyone who buys dslrs that often.

 

[Snow_Fox]

I guess you are a kid in his 20s. I've learned to be patient w/ as I get older.

Yep 21. Patients is not a virtue sadly... I've had to have patience my whole life... I still have to have patience more so than I would like. However, I can still object when people's immediate reaction to what should be one of the most mundane task in life is to immediately seek the help of a "professional". I can forgive the people who walk up and ask "do you have this battery?" we only have what looks like 100 batteries per square foot.. I can even forgive people who ask "ok... so I just plug this up?" I don't even mind if someone has a million questions just trying to make sure soemthing works right.. but, please have a functional brain attached.. If someone is 30 years old.. I would have expected them to have hooked up at least one tv in the past. If they have questions about the new converter boxes, so be it.. Lets face not many people did or do know about them..

I've dealt with stupider scenarios than the coloring of a cable. I've worked with incredibly gifted PHDs, extremely analytical people and one of them is my friend. You'd expect he know how to connect to a wifi-hotspot. He doesn't nor does he care to.

I don't know the situation.. however, I will limit my comments to this. If he doesn't have a need to thats one thing. If he is constantly calling and asking you for help everytime he goes to starbucks.. I really would wonder where he got his phd from.. And I'm sorry.. when EVERYTHING Is color coded its pretty hard to mess that up, Especially seeing as there is only three cables each one having its own color and three plugs in on each device, all of which are yet again color coded.. :/ with wifi there is at least room for more error.

Each people have their priorities. To you, it may seem trivial but to them, they don't get bother with it. My electrician lost patient with me because I didn't want to cut wires in my wall and install a breaker in the fuse box. Sure, popping a fuse & patching the wall is easy but I have this fear of electrocution. Same thing w/ plumbing. I can install a water heater, cut pipes and read the manual but why should I?

A fear of electrocution is a fear of electrocution.

ANd why should you? well this is where I feel the need to point something out. There is a difference between something you can do vs something you would prefer not to do and you are willing to pay to have someone else do it for you.

Yes. I've dealt w. Laywers/Doctors who can't plug their tv in or set the clock on their vcr.

The objective of any college besides making money is to prepare students to deal with life in a logical manner. If The doctor/lawyer can't Plug one wire into the wall and one wire into the tv, I don't want them operating/defending me because their college obviously failed them, And they obviously are missing some very important reasoning skills.

If you mean they can't cut the wall, mount a flat panel tv into it, run the wires through the attic, and have it set up exactly the way they want it, That is more understandable.. it is not "plug in a, plug in b" However, if they can't do that basic most simple task.. Something is horribly wrong.

I use to act the same way when I was younger. I use to look down on people who didn't know how to drive stick-shift. To me, everyone should learn or not be afraid to learn. Some people prefer driving an automatic like the same way they like to sync their music w/ itunes.

I drive an automatic and I aim to learn to drive stick-shift before I die. I may prefer driving stick-shift and it may be preferable if I ever decide to get a sports car.

As far as itunes goes, what I mean is I logically expected a "drag and drop" method of putting music on it, that seemed the most logical since that was how flash drives works and everything else worked before then that I knew of. So I had to LEARN how to use itunes. I am not faulting apple for this or arguing apple is horrible with this statement.. My point is only this.. I had to learn how to use itunes like you have to learn how to use any other device. I had to put effort into doing it just like I had to put effort into learning to use any computer. Not much effort but, SOME had to be made.

Or should everyone drive heel-to-toe stick shift and manually mount their phone/sd card,copy the folders of music, and create.m3u playlist to get the same experience? If you used HTC 2 years ago on Windows mobile, you would know it was PITA. I mean, it was so archaic & clumsy, you had to copy a jpeg of the album into your music folder just to get album art. Then you had to make sub folders based on artists because the app looked for a folder.jpeg. I know you can sync with Windows but I don't use Windows.
I just recently got out of that hell when I traded in my VZ HTC Touch Pro for a HTC Incredible. Like the Incredible, the HTC Touch Pro was touted as an iPhone killer.

I am not proposing we should all have to use the same method by any means.. However, my point remains valid, You have to LEARN how to use apple products just like any other.

I prefer hitting sync in itunes. If it makes me a simpleton for liking that, then you don't understand the avg consumer.
Both get you from point A to B.

Get my point?

I understand the average consumer better than I would like :/ I am a salesman believe it or not...

Its not that I don't understand the average consumer.. However, I absolutely hate the "I refuse to learn" mentality.

I hate it even more so when people try to tout that apple is something you don't have to "learn" how to use.

I would prefer just copying my music directory over into whatever media device I have, that would be simple.

However, the problem is, in admitting you have to learn something on how to use apple, it no longer "just works". Apple's ease of use really isn't as fantastic as people would like you to believe.

I assure you, I've had people who were too lazy to google "itunes" call me and ask me everything.

"how do I get things on my ipod"

I answer "itunes you can google it to find out anything you need to know"

"ok where do I get itunes?"

I answer "apple.com"

"is it free?"

I answer "yes"

"does it give free music?"

I answer "no"

"well where can I get free music"

I answer "no where legally".

All of that could have been answered in two google queries. If they didn't know how to put music on there.. OK forgivable.

After I answer the question.. I don't think it is unfair for me to expect them to download it them self.

See the problem with laziness and WHY it is inherently bad.. is because not only do they waste MY time.. They end up wasting their OWN time. One google search would have found them everything they needed to know.

I'm sorry I just find it ironic that your defending laziness as a good thing.. I mean.. Defend peoples right to be lazy? sure! defend the right to be stupid? go ahead. I believe customers have a right to be stupid, that does not mean I should think well of them for it.

 

[sontaikle]

I guess you are a kid in his 20s. I've learned to be patient w/ as I get older.
I've dealt with stupider scenarios than the coloring of a cable. I've worked with incredibly gifted PHDs, extremely analytical people and one of them is my friend. You'd expect he know how to connect to a wifi-hotspot. He doesn't nor does he care to. Each people have their priorities. To you, it may seem trivial but to them, they don't get bother with it. My electrician lost patient with me because I didn't want to cut wires in my wall and install a breaker in the fuse box. Sure, popping a fuse & patching the wall is easy but I have this fear of electrocution. Same thing w/ plumbing. I can install a water heater, cut pipes and read the manual but why should I?

You know, I think it's a little silly to compare computers to electrical work and plumbing. Both are much more important and essential and messing them up could cost an enormous amount of money. Cost-wise it's best to leave them to a professional that you can trust to avoid astronomical clean-up costs from your mistake.

Computers are different. They're cheaper and messing one up usually doesn't cost an arm and leg. Users can afford to actually learn how to do things to avoid paying someone to perform the simplest tasks for them. With how essential computers are nowadays, it's really silly (and perhaps downright stupid) to not even attempt to learn some of the most basic things. Those who refuse to risk being left behind in different aspects of life (such as their jobs!)

I'm an "inpatient kid in my 20s" and for about a year I've been volunteering and teaching free computer classes to adults. Some of the people I taught began the class without even knowing how to properly hold a mouse. While there were times where I just wanted to walk out of the room because of how little people knew, it paid to stick with it. Why? Most of those people are now performing simple tasks on the computer, use Microsoft Office, know how to order things online and how to diagnose small problems that may come up. They're by no means experts

 

[Niir]

Im a history graduate and im going to be a secondary school teacher... TVs, DVDs, Sky Boxes completly confuse me, i couldnt set one up or find a fault to save my life, same goes for hi fis and setting up speakers that arnt for my pc!

However i can build a PC, find and fix hardware/software issues on my Desire or PC, have a laptop running linux and generally use the lastest tech with no problems.

TV is outdated tech so i just dont get it, doesnt mean my university failed me

 

[sontaikle]

Im a history graduate and im going to be a secondary school teacher... TVs, DVDs, Sky Boxes completly confuse me, i couldnt set one up or find a fault to save my life, same goes for hi fis and setting up speakers that arnt for my pc!

However i can build a PC, find and fix hardware/software issues on my Desire or PC, have a laptop running linux and generally use the lastest tech with no problems.

TV is outdated tech so i just dont get it, doesnt mean my university failed me

Are you my sort of twin? Just finished a degree in History but I'm going to be an elementary school teacher

Might want to get a little familiar with the TV hookups though, you never know what "outdated tech" your school might throw at you. A couple schools I were in had VCRs and some extremely old TVs. I've had to hookup my fair share of them for teachers I happened to be working with!

 

[partridge]

When the iPhone was launched their interface was the mutts nutts, but it is looking increasingly out of date and I was surprised to see them keep it for the iPad.

Look at HTC's interface, it's utterly gorgeous and customisable too. Apple can argue that it's iconic, etc, but personally the icon grid display is looking old hat.

I don't hate apple, but they are not doing themselves any favours these days with their draconian attitudes to their products. They really are the new MS!

 

[IOWA]

I'm 25 as well, and I just have to point something out.

Sometimes our generation forgets one important thing, we grew up on a computer. Its natural to us. I've been using a computer since I was 4 years old, playing around in dos and win 3.1. That was my sandbox, and you have to step back an realize not everyone is tech savvy.

Yes I agree macs have their place, but *in general*, I still feel its geared towards the basic user.

And misterspeed, I realize you have some unique applications fr your mac, and I know why it suits your day to day use. But you are the great minority. Most users don't even know what a command prompt is, and when they see one go running scared. I don't mind helping people out with their machines, I do it very often.

*but*

As computers and electronics become increasingly more intwined into our lives, the more we use them, now it is a thing of survival. When's the last time you've looked for a job? Most places want you to do it online now. Computer literacy in todays age is a must, and in the future it will be more so. I'm not saying people that people should know how to build a computer and have the know-how to install new graphics cards etc.

And to some people, computers DO cost an arm and a leg. Sometimes the data on the machine is more valuable to them than the building they are working in. So they fear messing it up. And that is understandable. And why should cost be a consideration anyways? If I buy something for $100 and screw it up, I'm going to be pretty upset. After all, its my $100, I worked for it, and just wasted it. To me, there is no such thing as disposable income. Maybe its because my family grew up poor, or maybe it was the rantings of my grandmother who grew up in the depression. Point is, I make more than enough money now, more than we ever dreamed was possible, but to my family? Every dollar counts. And yeah we go out and we spend, we don't try to conserve pennies or anything. We hit the 5 star restaurants and theme parks whatever, but, money still matters to us. $5 wasted, is still $5 wasted. So if someone is afraid they are going to mess up a machine they paid $800 for, and just want to have it fixed, then so be it. But on the flip side, they should know how to boot into safe mode, and run a restore all by themselves.

Oh, and a side note, I believe every one *should* know how to drive a stick shift. Its another one of those survival things, and its definately a skill that comes in handy in day to day life.

And I had a htc mogul(titan)/touch pro/touch pro 2. And I loved all three. In fact, I disabled manilla2d/and touch flo3d in favor of spb mobile shell. And yeah, you needed to be a tinkerer to get the device to fit you just right. But the office integration (word/excel) and microsoft integration in general(windows live messenger was the shat!), is something I still miss.

And actually, my first pda phone was a palm handspring treo. I loved that thing. I had a few more palm devices after that, and I somewhat cringed when switching to htc, but after a week or so fell in love with my mogul.




Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.

 

[sontaikle]

And to some people, computers DO cost an arm and a leg. Sometimes the data on the machine is more valuable to them than the building they are working in. So they fear messing it up. And that is understandable. And why should cost be a consideration anyways? If I buy something for $100 and screw it up, I'm going to be pretty upset. After all, its my $100, I worked for it, and just wasted it. To me, there is no such thing as disposable income. Maybe its because my family grew up poor, or maybe it was the rantings of my grandmother who grew up in the depression. Point is, I make more than enough money now, more than we ever dreamed was possible, but to my family? Every dollar counts. And yeah we go out and we spend, we don't try to conserve pennies or anything. We hit the 5 star restaurants and theme parks whatever, but, money still matters to us. $5 wasted, is still $5 wasted. So if someone is afraid they are going to mess up a machine they paid $800 for, and just want to have it fixed, then so be it. But on the flip side, they should know how to boot into safe mode, and run a restore all by themselves.

Well your last sentence is what I really meant. If something is seriously wrong with a computer, people should have it looked at by an expert. However it really burns me up that Geek Squad makes a fortune on people who don't know how to do a system restore or other simple things. Most problems that people have are of the simpler kind, and learning how to fix those could save a bit more money if people weren't so afraid to do so.

Another thing people should learn how to do is back up data. That way they aren't afraid to lose family photos, etc. because they can just restore them from a backup. Having a backup also makes it that much easier to move to a new unit should the cost of fixing one exceed its worth or what a new comparable computer would cost. I've heard Windows 7 makes it easy to back up data (haven't explored that option myself so I don't really know) and Mac OS 10.5 and 10.6 have Time Machine, which is an incredibly easy way to back up data (and from my own screwup, I can attest to the fact that it works wonderfully and restores data flawlessly)

And cost really IS a factor into when the experts should be called. Try to fix a car yourself, or do your own electrical work when you have no experience could be a seriously costly endeavor, perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. Screwing up a computer if one has little experience will often only be a couple hundred dollar mistake depending on the unit. Does it pay to spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on a computer? Not really. Besides, most can't really afford that anyway. Learning how to diagnose and fix problems on a computer can be a cost-saving device in itself. I'm surprised saving money isn't more of a motivation for people! This is one of the reasons why I often explore the DIY option, when applicable.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

I'm not defending anyone's stupidity or laziness. I seem to have more patience and understanding that people have different priorities. You call it laziness. I call it indifference.

I get the impression that snow-fox works in retail, possibly in an outfit like Best Buy/Staples/Office Max.
I can feel the pent-up frustration. Consumers who walk into those stores are being sold the idea of dealing w/ experts. Hence the whole "geek squad" and "apple bar geniuses" memes. Because they are paying for a perceived services, they feel entitled to ask lots of questions (as trivial as it may seem).

Snow Fox, I also highly doubt the same people "who tout Apple's ease-of-use" are the same people asking you to download iTunes. I think you are confusing the message from Apple and from your experience w/ people in retail. Then you are simply grouping them in all one group.

If someone was touting 'ease-of-use' and was an existing Apple user, they would already know that iTunes is installed by default. Apple even has animation when it boots up. If they don't, they deserve to be sent to an re-education camp.

Let me clarify one thing for certain. Macintosh users are not the same as "iPhone/iPod" users. Just because you can buy a product,it doesn't mean you know how to operate a computer.

There are also very stupid people that CAN and KNOW how to operate a computer too.

There is also the issue of familiarity. Most you posters are in your 20s, and as someone pointed out, you guys grew up w/ electronics and computers.
When you start computers/electronics at an early age, you get accustomed and it becomes natural. I know people in their 30/40s who are computer illiterate. They only use computers for checking email and going on facebook. And thats it. Having them turn on, click a few buttons is all they need. They don't even need to know how to save a file to the disk or even add a file into an email as an attachment.

I bet you guys also dismiss the idea cloud computing, thin-clients, e.g. Google Chrome OS. I mean, it is just a browser and nothing more. Sounds limited when the only thing the computer does is boot into Chrome OS. Well, I think it is ingenious and great for certain usage/scenarios. Would I use it personally, no. But, I could see 20 other people in my inner circle using it.

Back to the Apple hate issue. I think it boils down to familiarity. If someone grew up w/ Windows when he/she was 4 years old, I can see how those computing metaphors have been ingrained into their psyche. Hence, everything else may be foreign and illogical. I used to be an NT 4.0 Administrator and Visual Basic developer. I was deep in MS camp for a long time and I,too, had those same prejudices; like "who the hell un-mounts a drive by putting it in the trash can, who the hell names their files 07/04/1998,names a file like a long run-on sentence, why don't they add a file extension to their photoshop files." I fought with the whole concept of file names because I believe in cross-platform compatibility when in truth, the little petty thing doesn't matter.

I see a lot of animosity toward the iPad; mostly because of the price-point. When I gave my dad the iPad to play with (a guy, to this day, never really uses a computer), he was at home with the concept of swiping photos in the gallery was easy for him. For him to simply plug his camera in (and let iPhoto automatically synch the files) and simply clicking on iTunes is easy. This guy is an 80 yr. old Union worker who never had a need for a computer. He doesn't fit the stereo-type of the turtleneck hipster creative mac user. $500 for a tablet is not that big of a deal if it does one thing he wants - see picts of his grandkids.
This is the same for Chrome OS. Would you pay $400 for a netback that only booted into a web browser? Well, apparently Google think some people will.

The whole commercial messaging of ease-of-use is to get people to buy a computer who may be intimidated to buy one. Is that so wrong to get that message across. Look at this way, Microsoft started having commercials with cute toddlers who made slide-shows and photo albums. They, too, were trying to push the message of simplicity. And in reality, computers are much more simpler. They're less intimidating regardless if you use OSX, Win, or Ubuntu.

 

[byteware]

As an aside, executing a search warrant =/= S.W.A.T. team storming a gizmodo editor's home. Factually incorrect.

However, executing a search warrant such as they did, instead of ordering them to turn over any pertinent information, has the effect of shutting them down, and turning away informants.

This is why Search warrants are not executed upon Journalists, but they are ordered to turn over pertinent information.

This way, they can fight having information turned over that is outside the scope of the investigation and continue to keep informants identities secret.

 

[IOWA]

I'm not defending anyone's stupidity or laziness. I seem to have more patience and understanding that people have different priorities. You call it laziness. I call it indifference.

I get the impression that snow-fox works in retail, possibly in an outfit like Best Buy/Staples/Office Max.
I can feel the pent-up frustration. Consumers who walk into those stores are being sold the idea of dealing w/ experts. Hence the whole "geek squad" and "apple bar geniuses" memes. Because they are paying for a perceived services, they feel entitled to ask lots of questions (as trivial as it may seem).

Snow Fox, I also highly doubt the same people "who tout Apple's ease-of-use" are the same people asking you to download iTunes. I think you are confusing the message from Apple and from your experience w/ people in retail. Then you are simply grouping them in all one group.

If someone was touting 'ease-of-use' and was an existing Apple user, they would already know that iTunes is installed by default. Apple even has animation when it boots up. If they don't, they deserve to be sent to an re-education camp.

Let me clarify one thing for certain. Macintosh users are not the same as "iPhone/iPod" users. Just because you can buy a product,it doesn't mean you know how to operate a computer.

There are also very stupid people that CAN and KNOW how to operate a computer too.

There is also the issue of familiarity. Most you posters are in your 20s, and as someone pointed out, you guys grew up w/ electronics and computers.
When you start computers/electronics at an early age, you get accustomed and it becomes natural. I know people in their 30/40s who are computer illiterate. They only use computers for checking email and going on facebook. And thats it. Having them turn on, click a few buttons is all they need. They don't even need to know how to save a file to the disk or even add a file into an email as an attachment.

I bet you guys also dismiss the idea cloud computing, thin-clients, e.g. Google Chrome OS. I mean, it is just a browser and nothing more. Sounds limited when the only thing the computer does is boot into Chrome OS. Well, I think it is ingenious and great for certain usage/scenarios. Would I use it personally, no. But, I could see 20 other people in my inner circle using it.

Back to the Apple hate issue. I think it boils down to familiarity. If someone grew up w/ Windows when he/she was 4 years old, I can see how those computing metaphors have been ingrained into their psyche. Hence, everything else may be foreign and illogical. I used to be an NT 4.0 Administrator and Visual Basic developer. I was deep in MS camp for a long time and I,too, had those same prejudices; like "who the hell un-mounts a drive by putting it in the trash can, who the hell names their files 07/04/1998,names a file like a long run-on sentence, why don't they add a file extension to their photoshop files." I fought with the whole concept of file names because I believe in cross-platform compatibility when in truth, the little petty thing doesn't matter.

I see a lot of animosity toward the iPad; mostly because of the price-point. When I gave my dad the iPad to play with (a guy, to this day, never really uses a computer), he was at home with the concept of swiping photos in the gallery was easy for him. For him to simply plug his camera in (and let iPhoto automatically synch the files) and simply clicking on iTunes is easy. This guy is an 80 yr. old Union worker who never had a need for a computer. He doesn't fit the stereo-type of the turtleneck hipster creative mac user. $500 for a tablet is not that big of a deal if it does one thing he wants - see picts of his grandkids.
This is the same for Chrome OS. Would you pay $400 for a netback that only booted into a web browser? Well, apparently Google think some people will.

The whole commercial messaging of ease-of-use is to get people to buy a computer who may be intimidated to buy one. Is that so wrong to get that message across. Look at this way, Microsoft started having commercials with cute toddlers who made slide-shows and photo albums. They, too, were trying to push the message of simplicity. And in reality, computers are much more simpler. They're less intimidating regardless if you use OSX, Win, or Ubuntu.

Well, as wrong as it seems, some of us are bitter. Why? Let me give you example. Back when the internet was only command line, and it was for people who invested time learning how to use it. Well then comes the browser. Well, I would feel a sort of bitterness towards the browser.

Here's a personal example. When I got my first internet connection, I was amazed with what a website was. it blew my dial in bbs outside the water. so I invested my hard earned allowance into front page 98, and couple with it was a program called image composer. I spent weeks upon weeks and countless hours learning html, how to to use the editors, and how to make custom graphics! Wow! Awesome! I had my very own website in 1998, at the age of 13. 100% done by me. I had a blog before the term was even thought up. That may seem like nothing today, but man 11 years ago, that was huuge. This was before php/ajax/newlanghere became mainstream. Html/java was it. Well now comes along online sitebuilders. You could (almost) do what took me weeks of learning, tweaking, and refining, only took a couple of clicks. People touted "I have a website now too! Look at me!"

Well, obviously mine was much better/more advanced, with my cool custom logos and java chat applets, and cool javascript fade effects and mouseovers.(oh boy mouseovers was a bitch to learn. Not that CSS crap either)

but, I resented the fact that it was that easy and stupid proof.

Fast forward to today. Now computers and smartphones are becoming easier an easier. And since business's are in it for the money, I don't blame them for trying to capitalize sales. So, us geeks who invested our time learning simple things like drag and drop, copy and paste, file extensions and command prompts, manually assigning properities and configuring things to our liking. Well now it can all be done with the click of a button. And to us, the old way isn't hard at all. It comes natural to us. And we will aways be one step ahead of the crowd. They can click to sync, well we can sync wirelessly through wifi and tether. They can tether you say? Well we can install custom roms, program kernels etc. We are always one step ahead, and we just have to take solace in the fact we will stay one step ahead of the crowd.

Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.

 

[byteware]

On an Android related theme. I found the Android SDK/Eclipse easiest to install and use on OSX. NO need to download USB drivers for certain phones like you would on Windows or Linux. If you notice the Android IO event, all the Google presenters were using..... MacBook Pros. That tells you something.

I don't know anyone who has had to download and install a single USB driver for their phone....

 

[IOWA]

On an Android related theme. I found the Android SDK/Eclipse easiest to install and use on OSX. NO need to download USB drivers for certain phones lik

I don't know anyone who has had to download and install a single USB driver for their phone....

When you actually use the sdk you do.

Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

Well, as wrong as it seems, some of us are bitter.
Why? Let me give you example. ........ Not that CSS crap either....

but, I resented the fact that it was that easy and stupid proof.

And to us, the old way isn't hard at all. It comes natural to us. And we will aways be one step ahead of the crowd.

Bitterness and it sounds like you have this sense of entitlement with your html example. This bitterness is pent up frustration and it is projected against something foreign to you, namely a company that has a different vision of computing than you. Your HTML depiction is about entitlement on how you went thru the ropes and because of those experiences, you are entitled to act a certain way. Well, I got news for you. The old ways are dead. It is the same entitlement 4 years before you started surfing the web. Before port 80, we all used usenet and gopher. Instead of bittorrents, and netscape navigator. People got their porn and warez on usenet using uue downloaders. Things change. CSS is way better than tables and invisible gifs from the dot-com days.
Frameworks like jquery and ajax are more sophisitcated than plain javascript. 2 lines of jquery to hide/close divs is easier than writing javascript to handle the different javascript interpreters. Because a guy can write a pac-man clone game in html using just jquery/dhtml, does it make him less than a guy who just writes pure javascript.Making a game like Frogger/Dig-Dug in html (no matter that scripting lang) takes talent. And eventually, HTML5 will kill Flash. Things change.

I don't believe in entitlement nor do I believe in a single way of doing things. The Internet is all about the sharing/getting of info. How you use it is of no relevance to me.
So what if someone can't google the answer or know how to use a search engine. Same thing with phones. If someone wants an phone w/iPod functionality and a photo gallery,let them have it. Because it didn't support MMS at first, it is deemed inferior.

I am too old and still don't get why people use SMS/TEXT when I can just call them or email them.

20 yrs old, bitter, & entitlement is a recipe for fanboysim. I'm just saying.

It is like cars.The new 2011 Mustanfg 5.0 has all the same technical specs as the BMW M3. Same horsepower, same tortque, same 0-60,same 1/4, same stopping time, same lateral-g acceleration, similar track times.
I'd pick the mustang all day long because of the price and I like to be the under-dog but I won't hate someone who wants the bimmer. They justify their purchases with intangibles like steering feel, road-feedback, fit-n-finish of materials.
Similar intangibles that a macbook pro owner may have. However small those intangibles are, they are worth it to that consumer. So, the BMW guy who spent twice the price of a ford feel smug. Do I care? No.

 

[byteware]

If someone wants an phone w/iPod functionality and a photo gallery,let them have it. Because it didn't support MMS at first, it is deemed inferior.

That's because it would BE inferior... That's like saying that just because the RAZR doesn't have all the features of the iPhone doesn't make it inferior... Umm... yes it does.

 

[Snow_Fox]

Im a history graduate and im going to be a secondary school teacher... TVs, DVDs, Sky Boxes completly confuse me, i couldnt set one up or find a fault to save my life, same goes for hi fis and setting up speakers that arnt for my pc!

However i can build a PC, find and fix hardware/software issues on my Desire or PC, have a laptop running linux and generally use the lastest tech with no problems.

TV is outdated tech so i just dont get it, doesnt mean my university failed me

Do you honestly mean to tell me you can't plug in red, white, and yellow wires from a dvd box to your television? I mean now they even have hdmi cords so many times it is all one cord..

And to some people, computers DO cost an arm and a leg. Sometimes the data on the machine is more valuable to them than the building they are working in. So they fear messing it up. And that is understandable. And why should cost be a consideration anyways? If I buy something for $100 and screw it up, I'm going to be pretty upset. After all, its my $100, I worked for it, and just wasted it. To me, there is no such thing as disposable income. Maybe its because my family grew up poor, or maybe it was the rantings of my grandmother who grew up in the depression. Point is, I make more than enough money now, more than we ever dreamed was possible, but to my family? Every dollar counts. And yeah we go out and we spend, we don't try to conserve pennies or anything. We hit the 5 star restaurants and theme parks whatever, but, money still matters to us. $5 wasted, is still $5 wasted. So if someone is afraid they are going to mess up a machine they paid $800 for, and just want to have it fixed, then so be it. But on the flip side, they should know how to boot into safe mode, and run a restore all by themselves.

I am not saying all computers are cheap by any means! but, *IF* you have information on that computer you consider more valuable than the building your working in, Than I think it is safe to expect you to know enough about computers to not totally scew it up.

I would also like to go one step further and say that for most people *if* they do mess something up fixing it is usually as simple as calling a nerdy friend, which is much easier than say rewiring electrical work in your house.

With that said, I hope that anyone with anything precious to them on a comp learns how to back it up fairly quickly

 

[IOWA]

Well, as wrong as it seems, some of us are bitter.
Why? Let me give you example. ........ Not that CSS crap either....

but, I resented the fact that

Bitterness and it sounds like you have this sense of entitlement with your html example. This bitterness is pent up frustration and it is projected against something foreign to you, namely a company that has a different vision of computing than you. Your HTML depiction is about entitlement on how you went thru the ropes and because of those experiences, you are entitled to act a certain way. Well, I got news for you. The old ways are dead. It is the same entitlement 4 years before you started surfing the web. Before port 80, we all used usenet and gopher. Instead of bittorrents, and netscape navigator. People got their porn and warez on usenet using uue downloaders. Things change. CSS is way better than tables and invisible gifs from the dot-com days.
Frameworks like jquery and ajax are more sophisitcated than plain javascript. 2 lines of jquery to hide/close divs is easier than writing javascript to handle the different javascript interpreters. Because a guy can write a pac-man clone game in html using just jquery/dhtml, does it make him less than a guy who just writes pure javascript.Making a game like Frogger/Dig-Dug in html (no matter that scripting lang) takes talent. And eventually, HTML5 will kill Flash. Things change.

I don't believe in entitlement nor do I believe in a single way of doing things. The Internet is all about the sharing/getting of info. How you use it is of no relevance to me.
So what if someone can't google the answer or know how to use a search engine. Same thing with phones. If someone wants an phone w/iPod functionality and a photo gallery,let them have it. Because it didn't support MMS at first, it is deemed inferior.

I am too old and still don't get why people use SMS/TEXT when I can just call them or email them.

20 yrs old, bitter, & entitlement is a recipe for fanboysim. I'm just saying.

It is like cars.The new 2011 Mustanfg 5.0 has all the same technical specs as the BMW M3. Same horsepower, same tortque, same 0-60,same 1/4, same stopping time, same lateral-g acceleration, similar track times.
I'd pick the mustang all day long because of the price and I like to be the under-dog but I won't hate someone who wants the bimmer. They justify their purchases with intangibles like steering feel, road-feedback, fit-n-finish of materials.
Similar intangibles that a macbook pro owner may have. However small those intangibles are, they are worth it to that consumer. So, the BMW guy who spent twice the price of a ford feel smug. Do I care? No.

I think every misunderstands my distaste for apple.

First and foremost, are their business ethics, and how they love to lock stuff down.

Secondly, is the apple fanboys rampantly saying "oh macs are so much better" without a shred of proof. Same applies to iphone, etc.

Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.

 

[toasty]

I think every misunderstands my distaste for apple.

First and foremost, are their business ethics, and how they love to lock stuff down.

I've heard this referenced a number of times in this thread, but I have to say, I don't really see it. Part of Apple's marketing strategy is to say that their stuff is approachable by non-tech-heads because it "just works," and part of the way that they insure it stays that way is by having what is in essence a closed system. It's a trade off -- you lose some flexibility and your software options are somewhat limited, but in return you get a system that is by and large easy to use without a lot of hassle. I think people understand that trade-off when they buy an Apple product -- and I'm positive that anyone tech-savvy enough to care about the fact that it's not as flexible as other options understands that -- so I'm not sure I understand how what they are doing raises ethical issues.

 

[Snow_Fox]

I'm not defending anyone's stupidity or laziness. I seem to have more patience and understanding that people have different priorities. You call it laziness. I call it indifference.

I get the impression that snow-fox works in retail, possibly in an outfit like Best Buy/Staples/Office Max.
I can feel the pent-up frustration. Consumers who walk into those stores are being sold the idea of dealing w/ experts. Hence the whole "geek squad" and "apple bar geniuses" memes. Because they are paying for a perceived services, they feel entitled to ask lots of questions (as trivial as it may seem).

The irony is that best buy and I am guessing the other two.. get paid to do that sort of stuff.. I have heard best buy won't even help even over the phone unless you give credit card info first.. We are a little bit kinder than that where I work.. We don't receive pay for our services in that respect. People just so happen to come to us because, best buy and other places charge "premium prices" and they know that we probably know as much as they do..

Snow Fox, I also highly doubt the same people "who tout Apple's ease-of-use" are the same people asking you to download iTunes. I think you are confusing the message from Apple and from your experience w/ people in retail. Then you are simply grouping them in all one group.

You are right. It is not fair for me to group all apple's in one basket. I generally don't have a problem with mac users so much as I do iphone or ipod users. My point in that wasn't really geared towards "Hating apple" it was really geared more towards the fact that I feel the "ease of use" apple talks about is a bit misleading. Although I do want to point out that in some cases the groups overlap.. and I think you understand my sentiments towards over vocal fanboys..

If someone was touting 'ease-of-use' and was an existing Apple user, they would already know that iTunes is installed by default. Apple even has animation when it boots up. If they don't, they deserve to be sent to an re-education camp.

lol. I think many people need to eb sent to re-education camps.. not just on apple side in all fairness...

Let me clarify one thing for certain. Macintosh users are not the same as "iPhone/iPod" users. Just because you can buy a product,it doesn't mean you know how to operate a computer.

unfortunately many apple supports are just that.. iPhone and iPod users.. I think it is safe to say if someone wants to try and compare mac to windows.. then they are more likely to be reasoned with.... They are either A. like you and really know what they are doing.. Or B. just really don't care about windows and are willing to pay premium prices to avoid some of the problems associated with computers. "iPhone/iPod" users can be pretty bad those.. Your average iPod/iPhone user refuses to believe there is any better product out there.. and I can just let it slide its not my problem.. I am not going to try to force my opinions on them.. However, if they ask me why I don't prefer iPhone/iPod.. it usually never ends well.

There are also very stupid people that CAN and KNOW how to operate a computer too.

Sad but, true.. More of them than I would like eventually make their way to the internets.

There is also the issue of familiarity. Most you posters are in your 20s, and as someone pointed out, you guys grew up w/ electronics and computers.
When you start computers/electronics at an early age, you get accustomed and it becomes natural. I know people in their 30/40s who are computer illiterate. They only use computers for checking email and going on facebook. And thats it. Having them turn on, click a few buttons is all they need. They don't even need to know how to save a file to the disk or even add a file into an email as an attachment.

Yes I know. However, don't misunderstand me I look down on my parents too.. I bought my brother some fans for his computer on his birthday.. Suddenly the patriarch started freaking out demanding that my brother not burn the house down -.-

I bet you guys also dismiss the idea cloud computing, thin-clients, e.g. Google Chrome OS. I mean, it is just a browser and nothing more. Sounds limited when the only thing the computer does is boot into Chrome OS. Well, I think it is ingenious and great for certain usage/scenarios. Would I use it personally, no. But, I could see 20 other people in my inner circle using it.

I don't entirely dismiss it.. However, if your going to be charged regular prices.. I would expect regular functionality..

Heck I wouldn't entirely mind the idea of chrome os *IF* it meant I could boot up faster just to check the web and stuff, then power back down faster than with a regular os.. However, for a device to be entirely limited to that feature would be pretty horrible.

Back to the Apple hate issue. I think it boils down to familiarity. If someone grew up w/ Windows when he/she was 4 years old, I can see how those computing metaphors have been ingrained into their psyche. Hence, everything else may be foreign and illogical. I used to be an NT 4.0 Administrator and Visual Basic developer. I was deep in MS camp for a long time and I,too, had those same prejudices; like "who the hell un-mounts a drive by putting it in the trash can, who the hell names their files 07/04/1998,names a file like a long run-on sentence, why don't they add a file extension to their photoshop files." I fought with the whole concept of file names because I believe in cross-platform compatibility when in truth, the little petty thing doesn't matter.

I can honestly say that most of my hate of apple comes from its users..

Then again I'm not fond of xbox 360 because of the sheer number of 360 fanboys out there either.. I mean literally before I had a "next gen console" the 360 trolls were out in full force.. I ended up getting a ps3 because, I wanted to play the ps3 exclusives more and 360 games have a bad habit of ending up on the pc.. (all of the ones I want to play at least). However, I wanted something I could watch movies on, that had some bluetooth compatibility and free online play.

If Someone has a hate of android because android fanboys are trolling them on a regular basis or making constant attacks (Ouside of this forum) On products that they like. They are perfectly justified in dislike android ESPECIALLY if android doesn't suit THEIR needs.

I see a lot of animosity toward the iPad; mostly because of the price-point.

I know this topic has probably been run into the ground.. but, When people like my co worker are buying it because it is a bigger version of what they already have.. (iphone).. It makes you question their sanity? "Oh its just like what I already have? SIGN ME UP!"

When I gave my dad the iPad to play with (a guy, to this day, never really uses a computer), he was at home with the concept of swiping photos in the gallery was easy for him. For him to simply plug his camera in (and let iPhoto automatically synch the files) and simply clicking on iTunes is easy. This guy is an 80 yr. old Union worker who never had a need for a computer. He doesn't fit the stereo-type of the turtleneck hipster creative mac user. $500 for a tablet is not that big of a deal if it does one thing he wants - see picts of his grandkids.

I can't knock that. He isn't a power user and he isn't a tech geek. He is also old..

This is the same for Chrome OS. Would you pay $400 for a netback that only booted into a web browser? Well, apparently Google think some people will.

Why not stick to a smart phone....

The whole commercial messaging of ease-of-use is to get people to buy a computer who may be intimidated to buy one. Is that so wrong to get that message across. Look at this way, Microsoft started having commercials with cute toddlers who made slide-shows and photo albums. They, too, were trying to push the message of simplicity. And in reality, computers are much more simpler. They're less intimidating regardless if you use OSX, Win, or Ubuntu.

Yes and no.. Apple is great with marketing.. However, I hate the ipad commericals.. Because the entire time I can sit there and tell I am not who that pad is being marketed to.

And honestly when I hear the "you already know how to use it" I can't help but, think "wel if its that similar to every other product I own.. I probably don't need it!"

*edit*

Even anandtech commented about how it is a pure luxury buy. While he reviewed it fairly generously and commented many positive things about it.. In the long run his thoughts were that it isn't for use as even a secondary computer... Maybe a third or forth or fifth..

Andandtech from what I have seen demonstrates little bias in any of the reviews.. Although not bluntly stated by any means.. I do think it was interesting he equated both ipad and iphone in a similar manner.. They were both more like extensions of a computer that you already have and use.. while the Nexus One was more like an independent computing device.. By no means a "full powered" computing device or anything.. but, I thought it was interesting..