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The (maybe) "Epic" Motorola X Pre-Release Thread

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EarlyMon said:
Ok, time once again to debunk the whole optimization of software vs. cores.

Most people are already aware of this, but it does not change the fact that a Quad core can handle multiple processes/threads better then a dual core. your presupposition is that only one application is running which is almost never the case.

That's simply not true at all.

A quad core _might_ have performed as efficiently - provided that two of the cores went unused, in which case you don't care.

Or - a quad core _might_ have performed as efficiently - provided that all cores were active and running slower to accomplish the same thing as two cores running faster.

No software optimization required - that's luck of the draw.

lol your giving several examples of how its possible to have a quad core with dual core power efficiency, debunking your own initial statement. Not only that but you have the efficiency until additional power is required, as I said you might not need it RIGHT NOW but you probably will in the near future assuming software develops at roughly the same rate is has for the last 20 years.


Each CPU core here is a Krait 300.

No other dual core uses that CPU.

To be fair there are no CURRENTLY available krait 300 dual cores. If you want to include soon to be released besides the DROIDs and Moto X you actually have a few mid range phones such as the Samsung S4 mini and SGM that are being released soon with dual krait 300s.

It's the same CPU being using on the top-of-the-line Qualcomm quadcore.

High end tech often becomes mid range and trickles down to the mid spec CPUs. The quads with Krait 300 were released almost a year ago, it makes sense that we would start to see them in mid range dual core CPUs

It uses the same GPU as the top of the line Qualcomm quadcore.

the same GPU is used in mid range dual core devices, that really does not make the Moto X a high end phone.

It uses specialize low-power cores for its additional features - other phones are relying on the high-power CPUs for everything, and hence - use quads.

As far as I know the 2 separate cores are being specifically used for the always on and google now stuff. I am actually looking for some articles that show what the 2 cores are really running, we dont know yet if its actually handling background processes that would normally be assigned to the regular CPU cores or if its restricted to the always on/google now. If it is restricted then thats just software other phones don't have to deal with and makes the 2 cores rather a moot point. Either way if you have some info on this id love to read up.

The truth is here. Not a mid-level processor.

You seem to be assuming that we live in static tech progression when in fact we don't, last years high end tech is this years mid end tech.
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I'm def not trying to be antagonistic or anything, learning a lot from these convos. Just bringing up points that seem to jump out at me and im curiuos what yall think even if i come off as the devils advocate :p
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The biggest selling point of this phone is customization. But they let one carrier have exclusivity for an unknown amount of time INCLUDING the 32gb verison.

How dumb is that?

There's a possibility that I would actually customize the colors on mine but I don't want to wait for I have no idea how long? And I would rather have the 32gb.

^That could make me skip this phone.
 
halon said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The biggest selling point of this phone is customization. But they let one carrier have exclusivity for an unknown amount of time INCLUDING the 32gb verison.

How dumb is that?

There's a possibility that I would actually customize the colors on mine but I don't want to wait for I have no idea how long? And I would rather have the 32gb.

^That could make me skip this phone.
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I don't know. If by customizing you mean changing the color of your battery door cover, once this thing is released check out eBay, I'm sure you will have customization options until your heart is content.

Don't forget that most of us will get a case that will cover up those customizations, err different colored battery covers as soon as we buy the phone and we will never see them anyway.

I just don't understand the hubub about the customization. Black front, white front? 32GB or 16GB? Those are options on most phones. The rest, meh.

Good phone, worthy of standing on it's own two legs. The customization thing is a joke though. I call it a ropadope. People think the gimmicky part is the hands free or X8 technology but in reality it's the customization.
 
I don't do cases.

And lets say that this exclusivity is for 3 months. That means I have to wait 3 months to the get the 32gb. By then something better could come out. Then Moto just lost out on my money.

Scenario #2: 22yr old girl walks into Verizon. "Hey I saw this phone on TV and it said I can pick whatever colors I want. I want to get that!" Employees response..."We do have that phone and unfortunately you can only do that with AT&T and we don't know for how long until you can do with us." Girl..."Oh that sucks! I'll just get an *insert whatever phone*." (Moto just lost more money)
 
Cronis - please specify which Krait 300 based quad phones were released a year ago. I know of none.

You stated and I quote - The quads with Krait 300 were released almost a year ago - I believe that you'll find that the Snapdragon 600 was announced for sampling on Jan 7 of this year for production delivery in the second quarter of 2013.

In fact, Qualcomm unveiled the Krait 300 and 400 at that time at CES.

It sounds to me like you've confused it with the Krait 200, and that you're under the impression that S4 Pro is a thing rather than a family.

Krait 300 CPUs sampled this year and only became available for production within the 2nd quarter of this year - therefore - it is not last year's tech.

Can a quad handle more processes and threads more quickly than a dual-core?

Yes.

Can it do so with less power consumption?

Given the same tasks, there's an inflection point where you go from saving power to drawing a lot more power with a quad.

That's not a single application case, and that's the case I was speaking to - because I thought that it was clear that that was the case you were speaking to. Sorry that wasn't obvious, I ought to made clear that I was speaking to the case of the normal use of preemptive multitasking here.

I'm not making the presupposition you thought, nor did I debunk my own statement, I simply pointed out that you're not presenting the power/performance curve in your claims.

And no, most people don't know about threads - and unless they're able to run in parallel properly, you don't know how many cores will benefit.

You're making absolute claims with underconstrained conditions - you can't do that fairly.

And if you knew that software is written in threads, why did you bring up optimizing software for multiple cores when you knew that wasn't true?
I'm sorry - I'm honestly not following something there - perhaps you can clarify that whole bit about apps needing to be optimized for multiple cores thing you said earlier.

The bottom line for the consumer is this - if you expect a quad core to run the same battery efficiency as a dual core, then you'll have to limit its upper clock speed so that all four cores together won't draw more power than your dual core.

No one is doing that.

And finally - if a pair of Krait 300s only available this year are suddenly mid-range because there's only two of them here, then by that logic, when the Snapdragon 800 comes out a little later this year sporting 4 Krait 400s, then the One and SGS4 will instantly be midrange phones because they're using an outdated processor at that point.

I can't tell - is that your position?
And finally, nothing in my posts doesn't presuppose a natural software progression based on past trends, as I hope is casually obvious. :)

PS - do you know the software allocation between the CPUs and the GPU? I don't think that's obvious at all.

And also - I have two browsers that I tend to stream media with.

With one, a single core typically runs at 1184 MHz and the other is quiescent with occasional blips up to 384 MHz.

With the other, both cores tend to run at 1512 MHz all of the time.

There is no apparent difference to me at all in video quality when that's happening.

You can run the heck out of anything. Doesn't mean that the apps that light up more cores to the max are optimized at all. Nor does it indicate that you need that iron.

And by the way, you said -

You seem to be assuming that we live in static tech progression when in fact we don't, last years high end tech is this years mid end tech.

Odd that you're quoting me and then saying that I don't know that. :D

Last year's high end tech included the SGS3 and One X - in America that meant dual core Krait 200s with an Adreno 225.

This year's dual core Krait 300s and Adreno 320, as found in the Moto X, will run circles around those two examples of last year's high-end tech.

I assumed nothing. I merely presented facts, not claims. :)

In fact, in this thread I said repeatedly that last year's high-end tech is this year's mid-range tech.

And this year's high-end tech is this year's high-end tech.

I probably should add back to my profile that I've been in semiconductor r&d for a good many years - perhaps that would help abate ideas that I'm behind in understanding tech progression. :dontknow:

BTW - I don't know what "static tech progression" means, static is static, progression is progression. :dontknow:
 
This is funny. I like when people argue with programmers on how multi-core systems work and how within a year Facebook will be running 4+ parallel threads which peg the cpu at 100%.
 
Motorola Cheaps Out With Moto X

If Motorola’s prepared to spend $500 million on ads, then bully for them. The company had also better be prepared to drop an equally large (or larger) amount on the tougher slog of getting that Verizon Wireless employee to suggest the Moto X instead of a Galaxy S4.
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This was painfully obvious to me when I visited the AT&T store. When I explained my poor service/reception with Verizon as being my reason for switching to AT&T the rep immediately started pushing iPhones and S4s as having GREAT reception. Once I explained my Galaxy Nexus got horrible reception and I have used iPhones and didn't like them she couldn't believe it. Started blaming the poor reception of my Galaxy Nexus on Verizon and their Galaxy phones didn't do that. Once I explained we were simply waiting on the Moto X she let out an audible "Pshh!" and explained that Motorola was crap and she didn't understand how they sold those Droid phones at Verizon and we needed an S4.

Moto has some work to do in the AT&T stores for sure!
 
AT&T has a corporate directive to push people towards iphones, it's quite sickening. I do find it funny when someone tries to say a Samsung has better reception than a Motorola, :rolleyes:
 
Can we talk real world here for a minute?

This is not an action movie, none of us, and I do me ZERO% of us uses our phone for a corporate takeover, to run all the national defense systems, to hack the national grid.

They are cell phones. They are meant to have access to email, web, helpful apps texting and oh yea make phone calls once and a while. The reality of what you really need is in question here. With the optimization Moto has made with the dual core and the added systems on the X8 it does what 90% of phone users need and it does it smoothly.

IF you're a "POWER" user, don't get the X, but don't complain about it either. Not meaning to be snippy at all, just confused why people can't appreciate this phone for what it is. INNOVATION.

That said, for you power hungry spec fiends, there are LOTS and LOTS of sheep out there feeding your addiction, HTC, SAMSUNG, LG, the list goes on and on.

Enjoy your phones, let us enjoy ours. :D
 
shalemail said:
The latest from forbes.

Google's Motorola Confuses Everyone With Its 'X8 Computing System' - Forbes

:banghead:
:hmmmm2:
:dontknow:
:stupido:

Why is there no face palm smiley?:eviltongue::thumbdown:
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I couldn't take it any more.

Registered, my comment at Forbes -

You said - "Ars ran a benchmark which listed the Droid’s configuration, clearly showing clearly that the phone was based on the Qualcomm Snapdragon S4, which is commonly found in 10s of millions of smartphones around the world."

That's true but it is not entirely accurate, and a few synthethic benchmarks don't tell the whole story.

The X8 includes a member of the S4 Pro family - the MSM8960DT.

Please note that the S4 is a blanket term for the S4, S4 Play, S4 Plus and S4 Pro - and the S4 Pro is a family of SoCs, not a single SoC.

The S4 Pro in the X8 is running the Adreno 320 and two Krait 300 cpus - both the CPUs and GPU architecture are the same as found in the Snapdragon 600 (as found in the HTC One and one version of the Samsung Galaxy S4), although the 600 is running 4 Krait 300s.

This is a newer S4 Pro configuration, because the Krait 300 is newer.

While all S4 Pros do feature the Adreno 320 GPU, previous versions have had the Krait 200, and furthermore, some include the programmable world modem (parts prefixed with MSM), while some do not (parts prefixed with APQ).

Moving on, the confusion over the X8 packaging is probably because most are familiar with the idea of one chip in one package.

There's an industry standard that efficiently accommodates more than one chip in a package - the MCM, or multi-chip module. (See Wikipedia)

MCMs are the norm in mobile deployment - many phones have a single package that contains the ram chip and eMMC storage chip. Examples abound from Toshiba and Samsung - two chips in one package - and is probably what you're using in your smartphone.

Piecing together everything Motorola has said and the part number reported for the S4 Pro SoC, the X8 is therefore an MCM consisting of a _new_ type of S4 Pro, and two custom chips, whose customization may be in design or in firmware.

The SoC also includes the programmable world modem, so no additional parts are required to accomplish LTE service. You may be familiar with that from the US versions of the Samsung Galaxy S3 or HTC One X - a feature not found on Snapdragon 600 or APQ-type S4 Pro based phones.

According to an article regarding statements made by Iqbal Arshad, Motorola's senior vice president of engineering - Motorola Reveals More X8 Chip Details | News & Opinion | PCMag.com - Motorola has given credit to Qualcomm and he couldn't be describing anything other than a custom MCM when discussing the X8.

I also noted that you used chips and SoCs in quotes in your article. An SoC is a system on (a) chip - a proper analogy would be to take some slice of a motherboard populated with several chips and then commit all of that to one big chip.

And I also noted that you've claimed that Apple has been clear about what's contained in their SoCs. I respectfully submit that that's not so, we've had to rely on X-ray photography and more to ascertain what they've had on-board in the past.

Mobile processing SoCs have contained upwards of 6 cores for quite some time - counting not only the CPUs, GPU architecture, DSPs, ISPs, modems, and so forth.

The only thing that Motorola has done uniquely in their marketing is to finally claim that their dual core has more than two cores - and that's not news, but it is accurate.

~~~Disclaimer: I've worked in semiconductor r&d for years. I'm not associated with Motorola, Qualcomm, any of the fabs producing Qualcomm chips - in short, I won't make or lose a dime if you take my word for anything here, I'm not connected in any way, shape or form with this phone or processor.

I simply hate that the tech blogosphere that you're quoting is woefully mislead and ignorant about modern semiconductors while claiming to be expert on the subject. They are by and large anything but experts.

Hope this helps!

TL/DR -

X8 = new type of S4 Pro SoC + two additional processing chips in a single MCM.
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Now I just need for their stupid profile tool to recognize my avatar so y'all know it's me. :D
 
Wow, but are we really surprised? I'm sure Verizon didn't want their new Droids to be COMPLETELY orphaned before they are even out.
 
The_Chief said:
NOVEMBER???? You have got to be kidding me.

I had high hopes that my Nexus will be collecting dust by then.
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This is truly disappointing news. It's so hard to justify getting this phone if I can't play with the fun color customizations. And waiting until November is RIDICULOUS.

And now I'm lost. My Galaxy Nexus is crawling to the finish line and I just want to replace it with something fun and exciting. Maybe I'll just go ahead and get the S4? The G2 is just soooo big!
 
EarlyMon said:
Well, that's pretty fair imo.

I give likes and thanks here for insight and positive participation whether people agree with me or think I'm an idiot. :)

The fun is in the discussion. :)
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Not sure I'd call it discussion or even being called out. His first statement is
"Wow, EarlyMon thanks for the long response! I
 
halon said:
Not sure if it was mentioned but AT&T has exclusivity until November.

So. Freaking. Dumb. Motorola.
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halon said:
So if you're on any other carrier you get black or white and 16gb only.
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I think the original post got some people a little confused.

I thought the only AT&T exclusivity was for the motomaker phones.

I've read rumors about the 32gb variant being exclusive but haven't seen many sources reporting that.

Either way, the drop date still appears to be August 23rd for Verizon.
Verizon Leak Points to August 23rd Release for Moto X
 
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